Author: A Special Correspondent
Publication: The Hindu
Date: September 12, 2001
The Following is the transcript
of the interview given by Commander Ahmad Shah Masood to AIM Television
on August 13. Commander Masood is the Deputy President and Defence Minister
of the U.N.-recognised Islamic Government of Afghanistan. This is the last
television interview he gave before the assassination attempt on Sunday.
Q.: What is the current military
position in Afghanistan?
A.: Ahmad Shah Masood: We have
information that the Taliban, with the help of Pakistan and Osama Bin Laden,
had planned early this year to capture Badakshan. Their plan was to first
take Badakshan and then cut off the supply line to Panjshir so that they
could lay a siege to our positions. This was a programme that the Pakistanis
and the Taliban pursued since early this year but could not succeed. This
is because conflicts this year started in regions that were under Taliban
control. Regions like Ghowar and Bamiyan witnessed intense fighting in
early winter this year. The Taliban were so deeply engaged in the war in
these regions that they could not pay any attention to their basic plan
of taking Badakshan. In the northern parts of Afghanistan too, fights broke
out in regions that were under the Taliban control. In the Zari region
and other parts as well, the Taliban suffered heavy casualties. At present,
heavy fighting is going on in the western part of Afghanistan in the regions
of Faryab and Herat. In fact, the Taliban and the Pakistanis could not
imagine that they would face such solid resistance in the western parts
of Afghanistan which were under their control for many years. The United
anti- Taliban front and the Islamic Government of the Republic of Afghanistan
have succeeded in thwarting the designs of the Taliban and Pakistan through
these uprising.
Some months back, the Taliban with
the help of Pakistan mobilised troops twice to take Badakshan but were
defeated on both occasions. 1000 to 1500 of their men were killed and injured
in that conflict. About four days, a popular uprising, organised by the
Pashtoon commanders, began in northern Afghanistan and Mazar- e-Sharief.
Owing to the oppression and negative actions of the Taliban and the presence
of external forces, especially Pakistanis, in the north of Mazar-e-Sharief,
the Pashtoon commanders, harassed by them, have revolted and had even established
contacts with the Unified Front and the Islamic Government. Currently,
a large number of Taliban and Pakistani forces are engaged in suppressing
and preventing this coup within the Taliban, i.e., in Mazar-e-Sharief.
These Pashtoon commanders who have risen in revolt were prominent members
of the Taliban themselves and had earlier helped in bringing the Taliban
into the north. Currently, the situation in Mazar-e-Sharief is very critical
and it is expected that soon the Taliban will lose control of Mazar-e-Sharief.
Q.: What percentage of Afghanistan
is held by your forces and what percentage by the Taliban?
A.: The Taliban claim they hold
90 per cent of Afghanistan's territory. This is totally false if we see
the map of Afghanistan. If they had held 90 per cent of Afghanistan's territory,
such a situation would not have existed. The claim is totally false and
carries no weight. In fact over 30 per cent of Afghanistan's territory
which are influential and heavily populated are under our control.
Q.: Is taking Kabul your main target?
A.: Our main target is to restore
peace in Afghanistan and defeat the Pakistanis.
Q.: Do you envisage eventually capturing
most of the country?
A.: We believe that the problem
of Afghanistan does not have a military solution. But our achieving a military
balance and equilibrium is essential.
Q.: How do you then resolve this
conflict? What is your plan, your aim?
A.: As I have explained the current
military situation in Afghanistan, the Taliban's advancement has been checked
and they are actually retreating. I believe that sooner or later, the Pakistani
Generals will feel and understand that continuation of fighting is beyond
their power and will not be in their interest. We have repeatedly said
that two steps are crucial for restoration of peace in Afghanistan. One
that resistance is strengthened and expanded in Afghanistan and, secondly,
international pressure is increased on Pakistan. In the area of strengthening
resistance, the situation has been very good this year compared to earlier
years. If international pressure is increased on Pakistan, I believe that
Taliban will be compelled to sit at the negotiating table.
Q.: How long will it take?
A.: It is linked to certain conditions.
It depends on how long Pakistan continues to help the Taliban and how long
it stands behind them. Do you know we are not only fighting the Taliban
at present but we are confronting three groups of forces comprising the
Taliban, Arab mercenaries of Osama Bin Laden and elements from madrassas
in Pakistan along with Pakistan's regular army. Among these forces, one
is Afghani and the other two forces are non-Afghani.
Q.: You keep on mentioning Pakistan?
Is Pakistan primarily behind the Taliban?
A.: It is mainly Pakistan. I am
sure if Pakistan is restrained, Osama Bid Laden cannot bring money and
a single Arab inside Afghanistan. It is mainly Pakistan which provides
men and equipment and has made conditions conducive to transfer of money
and passage for Arabs. Pakistan plays a pivotal role in all these areas.
Q.: Who actually runs the Taliban
now?
A.: In the field of military affairs,
it is mainly controlled by Pakistani advisors and Generals and in the foreign
affairs department, it is basically run on the advice of Pakistanis. The
remaining areas, that are controlled and administered by the Taliban, have
no achievement to show.
Q.: What proof do you have of the
direct involvement of the Pakistani army?
A.: According to the information
we have in our hand, we know the Pakistani Generals who are in Afghanistan,
their names and status and their whereabouts. We have the names of Pakistanis
who were killed in Afghanistan. And above all, General Musharraf has himself
declared on many occasions that ``we are the supporters of the Taliban,
we help them and this is in Pakistan's interest and is necessary from the
point of view of Pakistan's security''. This is something which Pakistani
politicians did not declare earlier but Musharraf has declared it quite
clearly. Currently, we have hundreds of Pakistani prisoners.
Q.: Do you have the names of the
Generals involved?
A.: Currently, the Pakistani general
who supervises the military operations is General Zaman.
Q.: Is Pakistan using the Taliban
for a wider agenda?
A.: Pakistan wants to make itself
the axis of Islamic countries in the region. And the vacuum which has been
created in Central Asia - it has been the strategy of Pakistan to fill
it up. This way, Afghanistan is their first step to Central Asia. With
these intentions, Pakistan has established madrassas within Pakistan for
students from Central Asian countries, where they study and these students
are trained by them for furtherance of Pakistani goals in Central Asia.
Pakistanis are increasing their influence in the whole region and will
not be only satisfied with Afghanistan. Of course, this is their first
step and they will not confine themselves to just Afghanistan.
Q.: Is it only a political aim to
dominate Afghanistan and then Central Asia or does it have an economic
side to it?
A.: The economic gains are part
of their larger plans which have many aspects. But if it was only their
economic interest involved, the best way for Pakistan would have been to
restore peace in Afghanistan. And it would have been in the interest of
all Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia. But Pakistanis have greater
plans, motives and expectations. I will tell you about their motives in
one sentence. As I said earlier, Pakistan wants to become the axis of all
Islamic countries in the region. But this is something which is beyond
the capacity of Pakistanis.
Q.: And you and your forces are
standing between them and that reality?
A.: Undoubtedly without our resistance,
you would have been witness today to greater and bigger problems of war
in different countries of Central Asia.
Q.: What is the role of Osama Bin
Laden?
A.: In the past, Bin Laden used
to provide monetary help to the Taliban, i.e., helped solving the Taliban's
monetary problems and needs. But gradually, his role has become obvious
in other areas too. First, he has a crucial role to play in shaping the
ideology of the Taliban. Secondly, in the field of financial help. Thirdly,
from the point of view of the organised fighters (warriors), he has them
under his control. So, he has now come to play a crucial role in three
areas.
Q.: Is there a danger of growth
in international terrorism now that, according to you, Osama Bin Laden
is playing a greater role?
A.: Definitely. The threat of Taliban
in creating instability in the region and in the world has not been well
comprehended, the way it should have been. They have created instability
in regions and can create problems for the world through Osama Bin Laden.
And also from the point of view of narcotics. Here again, the Taliban are
the biggest exporter of narcotics to the world. Drugs trafficking and terrorism,
the two problems which are causing great concern among the international
community, are emanating from the Taliban.
Q.: What do you want the international
community to do to bring the Taliban to the negotiating table?
A.: The international community
can put pressure on Pakistanis through various means. Pakistan should stop
intervention in Afghanistan. We do not say that Pakistan should bring the
Taliban to the negotiating table, but once they stop intervening in Afghanistan,
the Taliban would have no other option but to talk.
Q.: What should the international
community do to stop Pakistan from providing that support?
A.: The big countries know what
they can do to stop this. They could solve Kargil in a few days. They can
use the same methods and pressurise Pakistan so that the Afghan problem
is solved.
Q.: But America is nervous of pushing
a nuclear power too far?
A.: The pressure and means they
employed in Kargil can be used in Afghanistan too.
Q.: The U.S. welcomed the announcement
by the Taliban that it had stopped cultivation of poppy in Afghanistan.
Do you believe that it has stopped?
A.: When the Taliban announced
that they had stopped the cultivation of poppies in Afghanistan, it was
a good news which was welcomed by all in and outside Afghanistan. We do
not reject it. We welcomed this decision. We want the cultivation of poppy
banned in Afghanistan. But, unfortunately, this is not their intention.
The real matter is that the opium-poppy cultivation had increased so much
that it had brought down the prices. The opium smugglers are members of
the Taliban Government too. They went to the council meeting to ban the
cultivation so that the surplus stocks of opium could be sold at much higher
prices which will go up with depleting stocks. Thus they will be meeting
their financial needs selling the current stocks at higher prices and once
it runs out of stock and if the Taliban continue to exist, I am sure they
will reverse the decision and restart cultivation.
Q.: In the 1980s, you were involved
in fighting a foreign invader - the Soviet Union. But now you are fighting
an army made up substantially of the Afghan people. How do you feel doing
that?
A.: In the past also, the Russians
had with themselves Khalqis and Parchamites (the communists) fighting against
us who were Afghanis. Now the only difference is that earlier the invasion
(aggression) was from the north and this time around it is from the south.
In the past, aggression was very clear and their ideology was known to
us but now the aggression is veiled, and all crimes are committed in the
name of Islam and its defence. Which made it very difficult for the people
to understand the motives of the current aggressors in the beginning. It
is very fortunate that the nation now understands the real matter. And
this is borne out by the fact that popular uprisings have taken place in
the regions under the control of the Taliban, as I have pointed out earlier.
Visit the streets and the markets and the fields and ask farmers, shopkeepers
and the masses yourself and see how much realisation has dawned upon them
now that Pakistan has subjected Afghanistan to aggression and invasion.
It is not only the case with the regions, which are under our control.
But if you could find ways and means to visit Taliban-held areas and ask
the people there about what they think of Pakistan, things will become
clear to you.
Q.: Is the Taliban's approach to
human rights and women's education rights coming from within or is this
also being dictated by Pakistan?
A.: I briefly want to mention one
thing in this regard with the help of which you can analyse and interpret
the actions of the Taliban. In order to swallow and usurp Afghanistan,
it is one of the dangerous policies of Pakistan to reduce Afghanistan from
the level of a state to tribalism. In this way, the Pakistanis have begun
destroying foundations of the state so that no Government worth its name
exists in Afghanistan in the future. It has been many years since the Taliban
are governing a large part of Afghanistan but Pakistan has never wanted
to see that the Taliban has a regular and an organised army. There is no
doubt that the Taliban, when their real face had not yet been recognised,
had gained popularity among the people and the nation. But, during this
period, Pakistan never wanted to bring thousands of Afghani and Pashtoon
educated scholars who were living in Peshawar and elsewhere in Afghanistan
and make them part of the Taliban administration so that it could improve
and the administrative condition become better. Instead they created worse
conditions for them. They used the Hizb-e-Islam of Hekhmatyar to threaten
and murder Afghani scholars. Moreover under the threat of Taliban those
scholars were forced to flee Pakistan and seek asylum elsewhere. The Afghans
themselves initiated steps and established an University in Peshawar so
that the Afghan refugees could study there but the Pakistanis closed down
that University and constructed a mosque in that place. They let the Taliban
establish more madrassas but did not allow an institution to continue which
could serve the future of Afghanistan. Certain observers are of the view
that Pakistan does not have enough control over Taliban to restrain them
from taking steps on human and women's rights. It is Pakistan, which has
been providing weapons, fighters and other financial help, how it is not
possible for it to restrain the Taliban from destroying the Buddha. The
problem is different. Actually, Pakistan want to show that Afghans are
uncultured and uncivilised and they had nothing in past and have always
led a tribal life and have become accustomed to tribal habits and will
always remain so and thus it is their strategy to destroy the identity
of Afghans. This is the most dangerous part of their strategy and policy
with regard to Afghanistan. They want to bring down Afghanistan from the
level of a state to tribalism.
Q.: What is the attitude of the
Islamic Government to India today given that New Delhi appeared to support
the regime backed by the Soviets?
A.: Wide and deep relations have
existed between India and Afghanistan during different periods of history.
And such friendly and good relations continued during the reign of Zahir
Shah and Muhammad Daud. Unfortunately, when the communists came to power
India defended and supported those who had no standing among the people.
At present, very good relations exist between the Islamic Government of
Afghanistan and India. We have our Embassy in India and these relations
are becoming better with time.
Q.: Is there a commonality of interests
between India and your Government?
A.: The main commonality is that
both countries want peace and stability in the region and do not want tension.
Q.: What can India do to help bring
peace?
A.: India is a big country in the
region and can be effective through different ways to restore peace in
Afghanistan.
Q.: Does India assist your Government
in any way?
A.: As I said earlier, we have
good relations. We thank India for the assistance, which is extended from
time to time in the fields of humanitarian assistance for Afghan migrants.
We have good political relations and we consider it to be a positive step.
