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CPI(M) general secretary Mr Harkishen Singh Surjeet has earned the reputation of
being a formidable politician who does not allow ideology to blunt his political
skills. He has played a key role in ensuring that the United Front does not stray
from the ideological path which formed the basis of its creation, and does not
mince words when it comes to speaking his mind on issues of concern. Former Prime
Minister H. D. Deve Gowda was in awe of Mr Surjeet and despite his penchant for
straying out of line, was more than willing to be led back into the fold by the
astute CPI(M) leader. Mr Gujral has still to establish a working relationship
with the start being marred by suspicions and a certain lack of trust. Mr Surjeet
is more forthcoming on this in an interview with Seema Mustafa, admitting that
Mulayam Singh Yadav was his first choice for the post. Excerpts:
Q. Is the primary membership of the Congress the first move to make Sonia Gandhi
party president?
A. I don't think so. This decision was taken 25 days ago, it was announced only
yesterday. She is afraid to take a position. She wants to be in the picture
somewhere, but at the same time does not want to take responsibility. Many people
tried earlier also, she always declined. She knows the implications and the
controversies that will arise. But it will help d little in galvanising so
atmosphere and may be, it will have Kesri to consolidate himself for the time
being.
Q. Is this cosmetic,, or do you think it will be deep-rooted?
A. Not deep-rooted. Unless they take up the policy questions they will not be
able to rehabilitate themselves. Congressmen have not understood why their party
has lost its support so they are relying on manoeuvres. Now that period has also
gone. You can entertain manoeuvres when the mass base is strong, when you can get
the support of the people. Who comes, who does not come, is all irrelevant for the
common man.
Q. Is she running from. Bofors to seek the shelter of the party?
A. I don't think anyone can run from Bofors or from the scams now. The exposure
is so much. Every scam has been taken up by the people, people's violence is so
much. If someone tries to fun, a person goes in for a Public Litigation petition
which is entertained by the courts. No party is in a position to take the courts
to task, nobody can do it against this background. Because it is the result of
the failure of the executive to discharge its duty. It has not happened suddenly.
That is why on this issue I don't think anyone can do anything.
Q. There is no question of Left agreeing to a coalition with the Congress?
A. Not at all. No question of it. You see it is against the verdict of the
people itself. Only a year back the people routed the Congress. Basically on the
economic policies they have pursued. secondly their compromising attitude towards
criminal forces. thirdly their failure to tackle the problems which lead to
disruption of unity of the country like Kashmir, North East; and fourth, the
scandals, seams, corruption. These are the four main issues before the electorate
and on these the Congress cannot say anything.
Q. But the Congress does sat, that the United Front is not adverse to taking our
support from outside, but when it comes to joining the government they are totally
opposed. It is kind of false...
A. No it is not false. The reality is that the Congress has been rejected by the
people. It is against this background that the government came into existence to
keep the BJP out. The credibility of the Congress in fighting communalism is not
high among the people because of Babri Masjid and all that. They decided to
support the United Front against the BJP at the time. Their claim now that they
were being treated like untouchables is all wrong. Anti-Congressism is there
because of their policies, unless they bring a radical change in their policies
and perceptions no one is going to rely on them. They will not be able to revive
the Congress also. They must ponder over why this rout took place. It is not the
question of one individual. Why did the poorer sections go away, why did the
minorities go away? Poorer sections went because of the economic Policies which
have nothing for them. The minorities because they had no faith in the Congress
party. Unless they, reconsider their policies they cannot hiring back the
disaffected electorate. Even now the Congress joined hands with the BJP to bring
down the United Front government.
Q. When Kesri withdrew support, do you think it was a desperate gamble or did he
have a game plan that seems to have been realised now?
A. I don't think he had a game plan. A little frustration... and we had told them
and ultimately it came true that if they had some considered position to rally the
people they would not have come in four days with the demand to change the (UF)
leadership. Starting with the withdrawal of support, stating the issues which are
non issues before the people and then immediately after four days coming with the
slogan of "all right, change the leader. We are prepared to support you." Now the
same cabinet exists, there is no change in it except for one person at the behest
of Laloo Prasad who is changed. So. what are the gains? They thought they would
be able to blackmail, and boost their own morale. That is all. Otherwise they
would have raised policy issues. That would have created some feeling in the
minds of the people they are fighting for them.
Now it is very clear to the people they are fighting for their jobs, to come into
power. Nothing else is there. When Deve Gowda replied to the debate in
Parliament there was a lot of sympathy amongst the people for the United Front
government. On that day Congressmen began approaching us, "form some mechanism,
stop the debate," all this. We said "no, we will take the debate to the logical
conclusion." They were afraid of the reaction from the people, minorities and
others that with the support of the BJP they had brought down the government.
Q. But Kesri is now like a king, he says his game plan has succeeded, he has
changed the leadership of the United Front and the leadership is amenable to him?
A. I don't think the people's feeling is that. Kesri might be feeling..,. Kesri
insisted, "change the leader then I will withdraw the letter," we insisted that we
not would entertain this and he had to retreat on that point. Unfortunately, in
these parties there is no democracy at all. One who becomes president is all
powerful, nobody can do anything, not the working committee nor anyone, he can
remove anybody, he can bring anybody, he can do anything. This will not strengthen
the Congress in any. way. Now the way the elections are being held inside the
Congress, I don't want to comment, but various sections are vying with each other
to compete and all that. Some faction will ultimately prevail upon the other, and
they will try and control the party organisation supported by the president here.
Q. Is it trite that the regional parties and factional heads within the United
Front did not move to the Congress because of strong pressure from the Left?
A. Regional parties cannot move towards the Congress because they are in conflict
with the Congress itself. Take TDP. They cannot go over, there is no BJP, no Left
strong enough to challenge them, so their main fight is against the Congress. How
can they then move to the Congress? So far as we are concerned we are fighting on
an ideological basis, but their fight is for power. They cannot reconcile.
Similarly in Tamil Nadu, Karunanidhi cannot reconcile to the Congress.
Q. Can Moopanar ?
A. Moopanar... of course Moopanar is a Congressman, has been a Congressman. If
the opportunity comes because he has good relations with Sonia Gandhi, and great
regard for her, for that purpose maybe some change conies. He does. not mince
matters in that respect. He is very clear, he has great respect for Sonia Gandhi.
If a situation emerges where she takes up the leadership he will not hesitate to
go. His feeling about Sonia Gandhi is quite different.
Q. So DMK will not go, AGP won't either, will Mulayam?
A. Mulayam cannot go. Mulayam cannot go.
Q. What about Laloo?
A. Laloo... Janata Dal cannot go. I can say that. I am not talking about
individuals but Janata Dal cannot go. So what do they (Congress) gain?
Q. When you threw Mulayam Singh in as a prime ministerial candidate was there a
deliberate plan behind it? Was he a serious candidate or a red herring?
A. No, he was serious. We wanted immediate elections, to go to the electorate, to
show them that the Congress had, with the BJP, brought down the government. But
the other parties were not ready for an election. The Front was well-entrenched
in the South. When we looked at the effective force in the North fighting the BJP,
we thought that Mulayam Singh would be the better choice. In the Bombay
corporation elections his Samajwadi party got 10 lakh votes as against the 12
lakhs votes secured by the BJP-Shiv Sena. He got the maximum support (of the
constituents). Only because Laloo Prasad said he could not reconcile, and even
threatened to split that this proposal was given up. Initially, Laloo Prasad was
not for Gujral and was opposed to him bitterly. But at that moment he said he
could tolerate Gujral and nobody else. We agreed.
Q. Do you think Mr Gujral will be able to carry the government, or will he be more
amenable to Congress pressures?
A. You see, so far I have had two discussions with him on this matter. So far his
failure is... he is a soft man. So far as foreign policy is concerned he has done
well earlier. In running the administration he has some experience. He is
acceptable to all. These are the positive qualities he has got. But I wonder if
he will be able to strengthen those factors for which we have all worked to bring
the United Front into existence. He does not mention anything about the United
Front, in his speeches, anywhere. This policy is very dangerous for him and for
the United Front. This will be pointed out. We are having a Steering committee
meeting tomorrow and will discuss and sort it out. He is conscious enough to
realise that the main purpose of coming together is not the gaddi or the jobs, but
to see how the secular basis of the society can be strengthened. Despite our vast
differences on issues like the economic policy, this was one factor that brought
us together.
But if this target also does not remain there is no purpose for the United Front.
We can then fight on our own, let us continue our struggle. I think he will
realise, he is an experienced man, he will understand and try to resolve this.
Q. The American lobby is also getting fairly aggressive?
A. American lobby is very difficult to sell in India. Yes, American lobby is very
active. I saw that this Wisner, isn't that his name, lost no time in coming out to
support the government (under Gujral). He is playing mischief, this Wisner. In
the recent past Wisner has visited Kashmir four times (report in The Asian Age,
May 7). What for? He has been allowed to go freely and meet everyone there. We
know that the American position on Kashmir is not the same as ours. And Gujral
knows it much better being the foreign minister that they want to conspire against
India on the issue of Kashmir. We have to be very cautious of the American design
to disturb the process. We must also not exaggerate our improvement of relations
with Pakistan. We want an improvement but Pakistan is refusing to drop the Kashmir
issue. Moreover now with Nawaz Sharif, the military has become more powerful. So
we have to think.... address the people of both countries but do not act as if his
(Gujral's) meeting with Nawaz Sharif is going to sort out the problem. The real
way out will be for us to concentrate on the people of Kashmir, sort out their
problems, remove their grievances and fight those terrorists, drive them out of
the region. Perhaps then Pakistan will come to the table on more equal terms.
Q. The government has to take a position, it has not taken it?
A. People are not going to tolerate this (US interference). So when this issue is
debated (in the Lok Sabha) they will realise the mistake. I think Gujral will also
realise that these kind of steps will not be useful for the country.
Q. Do You think the United Front as an entity will survive the test of time?
A. It will survive, I do not know the time...
Q. I am talking of the Front, not the government?
A. It will remain, maybe some sections here and there, some defections, but the
Front as a Front will remain. Because the regional parties know that under the
Front, for the first time, a situation has been created where a real federal
structure is being thought of.
Q. The BJP will not be acceptable to them?
A. No it is against their whole ideological moorings. The regional parties came
into existence against discrimination of the states by the centre. They cannot
reconcile with the BJP's Hindutva which is in conflict with the base on which they
are banking.
Q. As for the government you have already stated it will not last?
A. No, I would like the government to last for a full five years. I am only saying
that it all depends on the Congress. If they learn to behave better and they
concentrate on the policy questions there is every chance of the government
lasting. But their eagerness to come to power... I am only saying that just to
insist "no, no this government will last for five years"... it is very difficult
to say.
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