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The Shankaracharya of the Kanchi Kamakoti Mutt, Swami Jayendra Saraswati, spoke to Shekhar Gupta, Editor - in - Chief, The Indian Express, about his efforts to find a solution to the Ayodhya issue, on NDTV 24x7's Walk the Talk. Excerpts:
Q.: Swamiji, You have made two attempts
earlier to solve the Ayodhya tangle. Those didn't work. What makes you
think that you'll succeed the third time?
A.: We are talking in front of
a mandir, before a Goddess. For it to succeed you need the blessings of
the Goddess.
Q.: There must be something in it.
Why are you so optimistic this time? You live in a temple, with the Gods
and Goddesses.
A.: It should happen. You will
get to know about it...
Q.: Why should it happen? What's
the difference this time?
A.: No difference... It's the same...
It has to be discussed with a wider perspective. The attempt should be
there to broaden the brain.
Q.: But how do you broaden the brain,
when...
A.: There's a narrow view. When
it becomes a larger view, the brain gets broader.
Q.: But small thinking has crept
in religions, there's now such a huge gap between Hindus and Muslims...when
you talk to Muslims they say how can we forget Dec 6... Just think if I
was a Muslim, I'd have this fear, this anger that nobody was punished for
Dec 6.
A.: OK... It happened once, don't
dwell on it... What happened has happened... If you've lost a son, you
don't have to keep remembering him...
Q.: But death could be Gods' deed...
If your son was killed, and your son's killers are roaming freely, how
will you feel...
A.: Even if that be the case, how
long can you keep crying... You have to put that behind... If it is like
that then even Hindus have a lot to grieve about... thousands of temples
were demolished... Both sides should learn to forget...
Q.: The Shankaracharya before you
never got into political matters...I am not saying you've entered politics,
but you seem to have shown interest in resolving a political problem...
A.: No it is not like that...when
my guruji was around, Ali Mian, who's a Muslim leader, came from Lucknow
to discuss the Ramjanmabhoomi issue... I have continued the process.
Q.: When you talk to Muslim leaders,
what do you make of it, do you think they also want the problem to be solved...
A.: They want a solution, but there's
a lot of grief within. They want to assuage the feelings of their own community.
There's nothing wrong with the Muslim community, it's just a handful of
leaders who are creating problems.
Q.: But there's lot of anger within
the community because they think the political leaders who are behind it
are still around... cases have dragged on for years now...
A.: It will be difficult to find
a political or a judicial solution. It will cause problems on both sides.
So, you need a negotiated settlement outside the court which the govt can
go and tell the court. Only then can you have a settlement.
Q.: How hopeful are you? Do you
think both sides are applying their minds and hearts in this effort?
A.: Yes, there's a lot of preparation,
only some people are apprehensive. Among the Muslims some are scared...
Q.: But there are people - both
among Hindus and Muslims - who fear that this issue will have a harmful
effect on politics...
A.: Yes, both communities feel
like that. But the Hindus believe that Ram will come to Ramjanmabhoomi
Q.: Yes, but there are organisations
like the VHP which have reacted very strongly and have said a lot of things
which have annoyed people... So, even they seem to be scared...
A.: No they are not scared... They're
scaring Muslims...
Q.: But that is not the right thing
to do.
A.: What can be done? There's anger
on this side, there's anger on that side...
Q.: But the VHP even takes out its
anger on you.
A.: All come to me... I am the
sun.. I show light and bless all equally, whether they come to me in anger,
peace... whether they happen to be politicians or common folk.
Q.: The VHP even questions your
locus standi, one leader even said 'you are a Shaivite, why are you talking
of Ramjanmabhoomi'... Don't you get upset with this kind of talk?
A.: Every body has their right
to speak, it's a democracy...but someone has to do the job... They can
go on speaking and the one who has to do the job has to go ahead with the
work.
Q.: The solution that you are trying
to arrive at will not work if the VHP keeps on saying such things...
A.: No, no... even they'll accept
it once a settlement is reached...
Q.: But why is the VHP using such
language?
A.: It has to do with their inner
grief. They are troubled over terrorism, over the growth of the Muslim
population and the issue of madrassas. But what is important is a solution.
Q.: But their trouble also probably
has to do with vote bank politics. Is it because they think that why should
A B Vajpayee get the votes in the name of Hindutva and not us.
A.: I am not working for votes.
Q.: I am talking about the VHP.
A.: VHP is also not doing that.
They are also thinking of the nation. It bothers them that nothing has
happened after 50 years.
Q.: There is the BJP view and policy
on this, and there's a VHP view and policy on this... who do you think
is handling it in a more intelligent manner.
A.: Neither is correct... The BJP
is looking at it as a vote - gaadi, and the VHP is reacting in an angry
manner. .
Q.: And the Congress?
A.: Their politics is different
and they are at it.
Q.: But what did you really mean
when you praised Narasimha Rao? Surely you were not praising him for the
demolition...
A.: In the beginning, there was
a fight among the poojaris, and then there was a fight between the poojaris
and the Muslims... and that is the case in the court. Rajiv Gandhi got
the locks open, and in Narasimha Rao's period, some spirited men demolished
the structure. Narasimha Rao got the place cleared and a small temple of
Ram came up.... He didn't place the idols himself. Some others did it during
his tenure and this has been going on for the last 12 years. Nobody can
remove the idol now, not even the courts... Whether you should have a small
god there or a big god there... it's the only matter.
Q.: So the temple has come up, and
now the effort is to have big temple there. Is that it?
A.: Whether a big temple comes
up or not is in God's hands.
Q.: But it was not right to bring
down the masjid...
A.: No, that was not right... Everyone
cried, Narasimha Rao cried, I cried... I even told the newspapers it shouldn't
have happened... Then they asked me about Babar and Ram... I told them
that's not an issue, the only issue is whether we'll get the Ramjanmabhoomi
or not.
Q.: But however religious a man
you are, you should always respect the law, shouldn't you? You cannot go
to the God's by breaking the law.
A.: That's right.. You must respect
the law, but there's no relation here between God and law. You must respect
the law and work more for God.
Q.: Those who carried out the demolition
in 1992, don't you think they broke the law?
A.: No, there's no law which says
don't break it.
Q.: But don't you think those who
carried out the demolition should be punished?
A.: That's the job of the courts
and it's going on...
Q.: So that work will go on, and
it doesn't matter how important a person you are...
A.: Yes, every one is equal before
law.
Q.: Swamiji, if this issue is settled,
do you think there will be lasting unity between Hindus and Muslims, and
all communities will come together?
A.: That's what Gandhiji also thought
after the creation of Pakistan, that there' will be unity between the two
communities... It's still going on, they will come close, there will be
some distance between them...
Q.: But why should there be a distance
between them?
A.: They are both brothers. They
live like brothers in villages, towns, across the country. But politics
is keeping them apart. Muslim community is all right, but the leaders are
creating problems. Then there's discrimination, there's fear.
Q.: And what of the Hindu community
and their leaders?
A.: The Hindu community has no
leader. In a democracy, every one is a leader..
Q.: But there's the BJP, the VHP
and the RSS...
A.: No, but they are the leaders
of groups.
Q.: But the VHP and the RSS...
A.: Yes, but they only had groups...
they do not command the following of the entire community. There's no one
leader of the community.
Q.: There's another issue... The
Hindu society is divided into regions, castes... then you have the peeths
with their own following...Why such divide?
A.: There's no such division. The
divisions you see were meant to work for the Hindu cause... But with politics
creeping in, these divisions are being created... This political division
is causing great pain... Earlier, everyone worked together peacefully,
and there was a lot of affection for each other.
Q.: But politics have really entrenched
itself... in the North you can see the divide, in UP, Bihar...
A.: It's there in Tamil Nadu too.
Q.: But in the North, no one single
party gets the majority... if the Hindu society keeps getting divided,
what's the point of having a temple?
A.: The temple issue is a matter
of faith. Our religious leaders are making great efforts to keep the society
intact... When I go to the North, people of different castes and creeds
come to me whether in Kashi or Allahabad. There's great togetherness.
Q.: You have opened a Trust in Ayodhya
which includes two Hindus, two Muslims and one from your Peeth. What is
the role of the Trust in Ayodhya?
A.: We are training them in self
- employment, imparting technical training and even in tailoring. We hope
that it will help them earn a living in Faizabad. The trouble that you
see is because of unemployment. If there's employment for everyone, half
the problem is solved.
Q.: So poverty is a factor...
A.: Yes, poverty - on both sides,
even among the Muslims - is a great factor. If poverty is eradicated, you'll
see unity.
Q.: When you set out to resolve
the tangle, who did you think would resist your attempts? The Muslim leaders
or the Hindu leaders like the VHP?
A.: No one opposes me, they all
love me.
Q.: Yes, they all love you. But
then they say you should stay in your peeth and not get into politics.
A.: That's not rajneeti, that's
dharmneeti. What has to do with Ram is dharmneeti. When the Congress and
the BJP say, it's rajneeti. Rajneeti is different, dharmneeti is different.
Only a religious leader can talk of Ram.
Q.: What is your objective? Is it
to bring about a settlement between Hindus and Muslims or to build the
temple?
A.: Both will happen... Both (Hindus
and Muslims) will build it with great love. Like you say Ram and Rahim...
They will get together and build the temple.
Q.: But Ram - Rahim is only talk
now... it's been ages since Hindus and Muslims have got together to do
such a job...
A.: It will happen if you keep
out politics and bring in dharmneeti.
Q.: So if you think this is solved
you will go and work for Hindu - Muslim unity?
A.: No, you don't have to do that,
you do it at one place and it will spread everywhere.
Q.: How much time will it take?
India is a dharmnirpeksh (secular) country...
A.: India is not a dharmnirpeksh
country, it is a sarvdharmsamanvay desh...
Q.: In the sense, all religions
are equal...
A.: Yes, when they made the Constitution,
it was kept as such a country, not a dharmshoonya country.
Q.: Don't you think once Ayodhya
is solved, politicians will rake up Kashi and Mathura because it gets them
votes.
A.: No, not now. It'll happen gradually.
Q.: You think if this is solved
Hindu leaders will give up claims of Kashi and Mathura?
A.: No, there's no giving up. Those
will also come in the future...
Q.: You mean you'll get Kashi, Mathura
too..
A.: Yes, we'll get Kashi, Mathura
too. After all, these are important centres
Q.: So you think the Muslims will
give these on their own... Why should they?
A.: There's an SC judgement on
Mathura... In Kashi there is the temple of a the Goddess Mangala Gauri
where poojas are performed once a year. It has been going on for years.
Only in the last two years after this fight with the VHP, it hasn't happened.
Q.: But there's a Parliament resolution
which says other than Ayodhya no other issue will be raised...
A.: There will be work there in
practical form...
Q.: Will this practical form be
political in nature or from the part of the people?
A.: From the people only, there
will be no fight.
Q.: So what happened was not correct.
A.: No it was not correct, but
what happened has happened, it will be through talks.
Q.: But the VHP has been saying
it doesn't want any mosques in the Panchkoshi parikrama area in Ayodhya...
A.: There are 12 mosques there,
in four - five they have been offering namaz... Another four or five have
fallen down... For them it is sufficient. If you build a new mosque there
will be a problem. The mosque they built was never intended for namaz.
It was built as a victory symbol for Babar. Babar's victory pillar has
been removed, not the mosque, but there is pain among people.
Q.: Where can you build the mosque
in Ayodhya?
A.: Wherever it is necessary. It
is not necessary in Ayodhya, every one is praying there...
Q.: Do you think the Muslims will
agree not to build a mosque in the panchkoshi parikrama?
A.: You build where it is necessary,
where there are people. Like we build a Ganesh temple.
Q.: So, mosque should be built where
there are Muslims...
A.: It's not necessary there, namaz
is being offered elsewhere.
Q.: So you think the Muslims will
accept this?
A.: It's not a question of Muslims,
the locals don't need it... They are doing it elsewhere, so how can they
leave it and go.
Q.: So you are confident that Muslims
agree for an Ayodhya settlement, no future mosques will be demolished.
A.: There will be no more demolitions...
no one will do it. No terrorist will do it.
Q.: We are not talking of terrorists...
the VHP says it will take Kashi, Mathura.
A.: It's not a question of taking
it... it will come to them easily... not now, but eventually.
Q.: So, you are confident. But VHP
leaders come to see you at the Kamakshi temple, then go out and issue different
statements.
A.: They are all trying to work
for the country. They say things in newspapers that scare people, but in
their hearts they are good people.
Q.: You are sure that they will
listen to you...
A.: Yes...They are Hindus, they
have to...
Q.: But the Hindu society is so
divided.
A.: Division is one thing, acceptance
is another... There could be differences for purposes of wedding, culture...
but when it comes to acceptance, it's there...
Q.: In the age of globalisation
when our intellectual ability is so much in demand, where do you think
the Hindu faith is going given the kind of campaigns by the VHP?
A.: The Hindus and India have nothing
to fear from globalisation. What we need is a rational approach: Indianise
the heart, thereby the culture; globalise the mind, thereby the intellect.
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