HVK Archives: Interview of V N Gadgil
Interview of V N Gadgil - The Indian Express
Interview of V N Gadgil by Sheela Bhat
()
17 June 1996
Title : "There will be a split in the Congress if Rao is attacked" (Excerpts)
Author : Interview of V N Gadgil by Sheela Bhat
Publication : The Indian Express
Date : June 17, 1996
Vithal Narhari Gadgil recently said that the Congress
should start a debate within on secularism and that
casteism was as dangerous as communalism. coming
as it
did from the official spokesperson of the party, the
statement was grave and, some felt, had casteist
undertones. Gadgil, 68, put aside the book he was
reading, Governing without a Majority by David Bulter, to
speak to Sheela Bhatt. Excerpts from the interview :
You said in Pune recently that the Congress has lost the
support of both Hindus and Muslims. Can you
elaborate?
I was thinking for a number of days as to why we were
defeated. The main reason is that our idea of
secularism
is not clear to the Hindu and Muslim masses.
Amongst
Hindus, the impression is that the Congress
pampers
Muslims who are very rigid and unreasonbale. And
amongst
the Muslims the impression has gone deep that the
Congress has links with the RSS and the party is
responsible for the demolition of the mosque. We have
lost both, the Hindus and Muslims.
So you are speaking in the language of Atal Behari
Vajpayee.
Not at all. I argued at that time in Pune that the
Congress should not redefine secularism. That's the
difference between me and Vajpayee. He wants a
national
debate on the definition of secularism. I want a debate
within the Congress party. Vajpayee wants to bring in
Hindutva. I am not for Hindutva.
What's your definition of secularism that you want
Congressmen to accept?
I have no ready answer. I want a debate. What I prefer is
equal treatment to all religions. Today, it does not
appear to the people that the Congress is fair to both.
How will you go about it?
We have failed to explain to the people how bogus is the
Hindutva of the BJP. Take the issue of Article 370.
Nobody tells the people that Shyama Prasad Mookherjee
the
founder of Jansangh, was a member of the Nehru
cabinet
when Article 370 was introduced in the Constitution.
Nobody highlights this fact. The spiritual head of the
RSS was totally opposed to the Uniform Civil Code. Now
we
must ask Vajpayee : Are you disowning Golwalkar? In
fact,
Congressmen failed in exposing the BJP.
Do you think that casteism is more dangerous than
communalism? Are you talking about the ideology of
the
BJP vis-a-vis UF?
My apprehension is that if we go like this there will be
a total polarisation of the Indian society between Hindus
and Muslims and between upper castes and others and
that
will only help the BJP. That is the danger. Thousands of
dalits went to Ayodhya for the karseva. We should not
underestimate the BJP. When I talk about casteism I
am
not only talking about UF, I am talking about all
parties. Though, I believe that in India masses are not
casteist, but the leaders are.
Now you are giving support to an allegedly casteist
government.
There are some casteist elements in the front, but I
won't say that they are totally casteist.
How are casteists more dangerous than communalists?
The communalism of the majority or the minority is
restricted in its operation. Attack on minorities will
affect only 15 to 20 per cent, but casteism will vitiate
the entire Hindu society. Second, theoretically it is
possible to change the religion but impossible to
change
the caste. It is possible for a person to declass himself
but nobody can decaste himself. Upper caste may talk
about social justice but the minute electoral politics
comes, your opponents can condemn you for being
upper
caste.
Which, do you think, is spreading faster, casteism or
communalism?
The OBC upsurge is gradually going down. One reason
is
that they are not one. Castes and sub-castes are
fighting. The real problem is political. My view is that
in north India, upper castes in the Congress must learn
to share power with the others. If the Congress wants to
come back in north India this is the only option. That
has happened in the south and Maharashtra. Equally in
the
south, upper caste Congressmen should have some
say now.
that will help the Congress and restore the balance.
Why do all these rebels in the Congress behave so
meekly
in the CWC?
I don't know why speakers don't speak out in CWC.
They
hardly open their mouths either. They say many things in
private conversations. There is not unity amongst the
dissidents, they are not in a position to project one
person as an alternative. Each one has his own
ambitions.
What are Rao's strong points?
He has the advantage of incumbency. As on today, he
has
the support of rank and file. I don't know what will
happen in the future, when the investigations (of the
cases against Rao) are over and when charge sheets
are
filed. Then the situation will take a different
complexion. I cannot say what Congressmen will do
then.
Has anyone demanded Rao's resignation?
Some people have told me that he should quit one of
the
posts. But I have not talked to Rao about it (smiles).
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