- The Rediff Interview/Shahi
Imam Syed Ahmed Bukhari
Author:
Publication: Rediff
on Net
Date: November 29, 2000
Within days of taking
over as the Shahi Imam of the Jama Masjid, India's biggest mosque, Syed
Ahmed Bukhari, has created a political storm. The cleric has hit the headlines
with controversial statements on the brokering of peace in Jammu &
Kashmir and forming a new political party, exclusively for Muslims.
His father, Syed Abdullah
Bukhari, the last head cleric, handed over charge to him at a tearful ceremony.
Though assigned the job of conducting daily prayers, the Shahi Imam has
often made political statements at his prayer meetings. Syed Ahmed Bukhari
answers this and many other thorny questions with a straight face in an
exclusive interview with Roving Editor Ramesh Menon.
Q.: To begin with, how
does it feel to be the Shahi Imam of the Jama Masjid?
A.: I feel very responsible.
Now, I want to work for humanity. One of my main aims is to break the walls
of hate that have been built between the Hindus and Muslims.
Q.: Bangaru Laxman, president
of the Bharatiya Janata Party, has welcomed Muslims to join the BJP. What
do you think of this?
A.: The question is
who drove the Muslims away. The BJP distanced us. We were pushed away by
them. They got rid of us to come to power. All these years, the secular
fabric of India prevented them from gaining power. So they created an atmosphere
of hate in the name of religion to get Hindu votes and succeeded in coming
to power. They used the name of Lord Ram. That Lord Ram who never fought
with the Muslims. That Lord Ram who never preached hate and intolerance.
The BJP -- in the name
of Lord Ram -- walked over the dead bodies of innocent Muslims killed in
the riots and came to power. They whipped up a hate campaign to help themselves.
The walls of hate were so high that they spun out of control. Now, even
secular Hindus are moving away from the BJP for they realise that what
is happening is not what the religious scriptures told them. The BJP now
remembers Muslims as elections are not far away.
Q.: Is it only because
of elections?
A.: What use are Muslims
for? How else can they use Muslims? It is only for elections. All parties
have used them. When the secular Hindus started moving away, they turned
again to the Muslims. In order to bring them closer, they will have to
do something for the Muslims. When you feed pigeons, they don't just come
and attack the grain. They watch carefully and try to figure out whether
they are going to be fed or whether a trap is being laid.
The Muslims understand
what the new BJP offer is all about. They listen to their heart beats now
and ask one question: Was December 6, 1992 a proud or shameful day for
India when the Babri Masjid was broken down? We want Bangaru Laxman to
answer this. After the BJP answers this, we will decide.
Q.: Sometime back, Home
Minister, L K Advani, had asked Indian Muslims to come out into the open
to fight Pakistan. You were clearly upset then.
A.: Why did he just
ask Muslims to come forward? Do we have to prove any loyalty? Is there
any instance when we have turned our backs on India? Has Advani and his
government given us a chance to fight for India? Why are Muslims not given
jobs in the army? Not even two per cent of the jawans are Muslims. Give
us an opportunity and we will show how we can die fighting for India. Have
Muslims not sacrificed in the wars? Have not Muslims contributed anything
towards India? Everywhere we are discriminated against. In jobs. In education.
In everything.
Q.: RSS chief K S Sudershan
has called upon Indian Muslims to Indianise themselves.
A.: Bangaru wants Muslims
to get close (to the BJP) and Sudershan says Muslims must Indianise themselves.
Islam is an universal religion. You cannot confine it to one area. Do you
call a Muslim living in America as an American Muslim or do you call him
an American citizen? If a Hindu lives in Jordan, do you call him a Jordanian
Indian or an Indian? A Muslim cannot be forced to follow different customs
in different parts of the world.
Q.: Sudershan was saying
that Indonesian Muslims observe festivals like Durga Puja and Diwali and
also have a mixture of Hindu and Muslim names.
A.: I do not know what
they do in Indonesia. But you cannot tell Muslims how to live and what
to do and how to follow Islam.
Q.: What is this new
party for India's Muslims that you want to start?
A.: Why is there so
much of a controversy about this? There can be a Hindu party. There can
be a Sikh party. But there cannot be a Muslim party. Muslims have always
been taken for granted. They have only been used by political parties.
At least the BJP is openly against the Muslims. But what did secular parties
like the Congress do after Independence for the Muslims? What did the so
called secular parties like the Janata Party and the Janata Dal do for
us? Mulayam Singh won only because of the Muslim vote and what did he do
for the community? He threw his weight behind Sakshi Maharaj who was one
of those who helped in the demolition of the Babri Masjid. And he threatened
the Muslims openly. Muslims were ignored by each party. When the question
of social justice arose, Muslims were not counted.
Q.: We were talking of
the Muslim party you were starting.
A.: It has created a
flutter. Let the other political parties now realise that we can get political
power if we want. I do not say that a Muslim party is going to be a magic
wand, but at least it can force Parliament to discuss issues that Muslims
want like education and jobs. We are not here just to cast our votes and
then suffer till the next election. And then again cast votes hoping for
change. I told Muslims to remove their crutches and walk on their feet
and become a political power.
Q.: When are you going
to start the new party?
A.: In January, I plan
to call Muslim leaders from every state to decide what the party should
be called and how to go about forming it.
Q.: You will then become
an all-India Muslim leader when you do this.
A.: I have not ever
called myself a leader. If I speak the truth before the Muslims, they will
accept it. I will speak against injustice. Talking against the government
is not talking against the country.
Q.: What is the problem
with Indian Muslims?
A.: I tell the Muslims
that they must be united. At the moment, they are divided and clash with
each other. This has made them weak. I tell Muslims to become a force and
defeat political parties. We must stop feeling like a defeated community.
We must make political parties recognise our strength. Only then can we
get what we want.
Q.: Do you have any political
ambitions?
A.: None. I am happy
where I am. I do not want to reach a stage where I am folding my hands
in front of everyone and lowering my head before anyone. For 400 years,
we have been in the Masjid. Morarji Desai offered to make my father the
vice-president. I got numerous offers to be made a member of Parliament.
But I am happy in the masjid.
Q.: Your father, the
earlier Shahi Imam, wanted to be seen as a leader.
A.: He never wanted
to be a leader. I am also like him.
Q.: Of late, Muslims
have often been labelled anti-Indian or pro-Pakistan.
A.: It is an absolutely
baseless allegation. How can anyone say this? I do not understand. Muslims
shed their blood for the Independence of this country. They have also sacrificed.
This is an absolute lie. Mosques are supposed to be ISI centres. Madarssas
are called ISI centres. Muslims have always been with India. I did not
talk to the government about peace in Kashmir. I spoke to Kashmiri leaders,
Hizbul chief Syed Salahuddin and militant leaders to secure peace during
Ramzan. I want peace in Kashmir. I want the bloodshed to stop. Why should
I do it if I or Muslims are pro-Pakistan? As far as Kashmir is concerned,
we are clear that we are not at all sympathetic with Pakistan.
Q.: What will ultimately
happen in Kashmir?
A.: There has to be
peace. Either today or twenty years later, talks will have to happen. But
first, the peace process has to start. Let us look at it this way. At least
now we are talking about peace.
Q.: What about the prime
minister's offer for ceasefire during Ramzan?
A.: Let us see. I think
it is difficult to work it out without Pakistan's consent.
Q.: Will India and Pakistan
enjoy the fruits of peace someday?
A.: Absolutely. People
of both countries want peace. It has to happen. We must admit that Atal
Bihari Vajpayee tried to do a lot. We cannot take the credit away from
him of taking a bus to Lahore.
Q.: If you were to draw
a blueprint for Indian Muslims, how would you draw it?
A.: Well, the first
thing as I said is unity. Muslims need to be brought together. Different
sects fight against each other. After ruling India for 900 years, Muslims
today live like slaves. The reason is that the community has been delivered
slow poison. Muslims now have to ask themselves what they want. Political
power is very important. Only then can they bargain for reservation in
education and jobs. There are school text books today that are spreading
the message of hate underlining that Muslims had oppressed the Hindus.
We need to change our thinking today. Hindus and Muslims must protect each
other. Only then will India emerge with a new strength. And both Hindus
and Muslims will be strong communities.
Q.: The VHP has now said
it is determined to build the temple in Ayodhya.
A.: They can say what
they like. If there is a law in this country, is it not for the VHP too?
We are saying we will respect the decision of the court. But the VHP says
the court cannot decide and they will do what they like. Is the Constitution
only for Muslims and not the VHP?
Q.: Is there some solution
to the Babri Masjid issue? Or will it simmer on and on?
A.: The government must
have special courts and speedy day-to-day hearings. Otherwise, it will
continue for years.
Q.: Who would you say
is a Muslim leader who has an acceptance all over India?
A.: (Smiles) Well, I
do not know. I cannot say. The Muslims know who their leader is. You should
know.
Q.: What do you think
of the Muslim leadership in India?
A.: We have sarkari
Muslim leaders who have no eyes as they cannot see what is happening to
their community. They have no tongue to speak and fight for the Muslims.
We kick this kind of leadership. Then there were others who could have
done something but they are either dead or are too old. We need a younger
lot now. We need leaders who are committed like Kanshi Ram and Mayawati
who did a lot for their community when in power. Muslim leaders are more
interested in power, bettering their personal and family interests.
Q.: When will someone
pull Indian Muslims out of the typical ghetto, give them better education,
give them a wider worldview and work to mobilise them into a modern flourishing
community?
A.: Maybe a Muslim party
can do it. No government or political party has yet done this.
Q.: Why have Muslims
not taken to education?
A.: No government has
been interested in educating Muslims. And the Muslim leadership has not
been able to convince the government about the importance of educating
Muslims. Will the BJP do something to spread education among Muslims? They
want us to get close them!
Q.: Muslim leaders are
often accused, even within the community, that they are responsible for
the plight of Muslims today. It is felt that the Muslim leadership will
rather have illiterate Muslims so that they can follow them blindly.
A.: That is not true.
Schools and colleges are not ready to accept Muslims. Many of them just
get rejected. Let anybody deny it and I will send thousands of Muslims
to them for admission. Muslims want to study and do well. Muslims must
be given reservation in schools and colleges.
Q.: What do you think
about the equality of women? Why have they not been allowed to pray with
men?
A.: Again, not true.
Here in theJama Masjid, women come for prayers. We do not stop women. It
is just that in most small places, women themselves do not go to the mosque.
If they want to pray, no one stops them. This is just false propaganda.
Q.: Why do we not have
leaders like you funding films like Salim langde me pat ro? It might help
non-Muslims to understand Muslims better and also for Muslims to understand
their tragedy.
A.: Everyone knows the
tragedy that Muslims are caught up in.
Q.: Your critics say
your father refashioned the phrase from Imam of Shahi Juma Masjid to Shahi
Imam of Jama Masjid during the Emergency when he was arrested.
A.: When the Masjid
was made in 1656, Shah Jehan made two announcements. One was that the Imam
would come from one family -- generation after generation. He appointed
Syed Abdul Ghafoor Shah Bukhari as the first Imam. Then onwards it has
been his descendents. The second announcement was that the king will now
be crowned by the Shahi Imam.
Q.: Why do you say that
Muslims are insecure?
A.: Muslims are given
a feeling of security before elections. They are given all kinds of assurances.
After the elections, the promises are not kept and they are left high and
dry. Naturally, they feel unwanted and insecure. In numerous places like
Meerut and Moradabad, Muslims were killed by police atrocities. And there
was no government to protect them. Naturally, they will feel insecure.
When Muslims come out into the streets to protest against such injustice,
they are labelled as mulk ka gaddar (unpatriotic).
Q.: What does your father,
Abdullah Bukhari, do today? He was seemingly upset when he handed over
charge.
A.: He is resting. He
has been the Shahi Imam for 52 years. If he cried during the ceremony,
it was only because he was happy. They were tears of joy. He felt sentimental
seeing his son take over from him.
Q.: Basically, your role
is just to lead the prayer. You cannot give fatwas or ask the community
to vote for a particular party. The Khutba prayer meeting should really
be a religious address by you every Friday. But every Friday, you stray
into politics.
A.: Khutba means a speech.
But it need not necessarily be a religious speech. One part of it is purely
religious. But the other can be on any current issue. I am just following
my religious duty of informing the Muslim community of what is happening
around.
Q.: Why did your father
call himself an ISI agent? He dared the government to arrest him?
A.: It must be understood
in the right perspective. Every Muslim was being called an ISI agent. My
father said that if his community is full of ISI agents, he being their
leader made him the biggest ISI agent.
