Author: P V Thomas
Publication: Newstime
Date: November 19, 2000
Biyyathil Mohyuddin Kutty is a senior
political leader in Pakistan. A Malappuram-born Keralite who migrated
to Pakistan during the partition, he is based in Karachi and has the distinction
of having served jail terms in all military regimes, except the current
one. He was the political adviser to the Government of Baluchisthan
in 1972. He was the central information secretary of Pakistan national
Workers' Party. As deputy secretary-general of the Movement for Restoration
of Democracy against general Zia's regime, he was in jail for more than
four years. Kutty is at present the secretary of Pakistan's Action
committee against arms race (ACAAR). He was in Delhi recently to
participate in the national convention on nuclear disarmament. Excerpts
from an interview he gave to PV Thomas:
Q.: Your organisation, ACAAR,
is spearheading a movement against nuclear weapons and arms race in Pakistan.
How is this received by the military regime in your country?
A.: We have had 27 years
military rule out of this 50 years. The current one is a little different
as far as the people of Pakistan are concerned. Outside Pakistan
this military rule and any military rule is the same. The difference
is that we don't see much of a military rule in the streets. Previously
you know. it was the soldiers everywhere. Now we don't have that.
Now there is some kind of freedom of the press. This we never had
under any other military rule. Press is writing all sorts of things
against the regime. And the regime is swallowing it. This is
something very very different from the past. But what we are apprehending
is that military rule and freedom of the press cannot go together.
It can go together for some time. Press will continue to criticise
and the military regime is something, which will not tolerate it beyond
a point. Until now it has tolerated it. So our demonstrations
against nuclear weapons also being tolerated. When India tested nuclear
weapon immediately we-the organisation belong to and several other civil
rights organisations - got together in Karachi and we condemned it publicly.
We issued a statement also. We called upon the Pakistan government
not to do the same mistake. We warned that there will be sanctions
from the West. Pakistan will not be able to stand it. If don't
explode a bomb we may get concessions instead. But what happened
was on 29th May Pakistan also did the same. We took it very seriously as
we knew that it is not acceptable. About 37 organisations got together
and formed the ACAAR. We condemn all arms race. We decided
to launch a campaign to informing people about the dangers that the people
of Pakistan are going to face in the coming days. We issued a declaration.
Q.: What exactly was the response
of the military regime rulers?
A.: Rulers' response has
been just keeping quiet. Because they thought that we are a small
part of the public opinion. The other public opinion is silent all
the time. We have been keeping silence through the 50 years of military
misrule and elected misrule. We had actually elected dictatorships
and military dictatorships. Both were dictatorships, unfortunately.
People do not express their opinion. Their dislikes. People
are against the atom bombs, you go to any markets or any public place.
People will say there is no power, no water to drink. But atom bomb
has been made. Everyone understands that this is wrong. But
the problem is that this has come like a tit for tat. Anything that
India does we too should do even if our economy can not take it.
If Indian government wants to commit suicide why should we follow the suit?
Q.: Was there any objection
from the Pakistan government to your coming to India to participate in
the anti-nuclear convention?
A.: No. Even in Bangalore,
when we came to attend the Pakistan-India forum, there were 216 Pakistanis.
The Indian government also gave us visa generously. Visa for eight
cities and for 30 days without police reporting.
Q.: Do you think you will
be able to convince the military rulers in Pakistan about nuclear disarmament?
A.: It is not only we the
civil rights groups, but the press is also writing. At least the
English press. The vernacular press tend to go for sensational sort
of writing. The English press is very serious. They have been
writing that Pakistan must stop competing with India in arms race and should
compete with India in economic race, not militarily. This is impossible
for Pakistan.
Q.: Regarding CTBT what is
the stand taken by ACAAR?
A.: We demanded signing of
CTBT right from the formation of ACAAR was formed. CTBT as well as
other treaties related to missiles. We demanded Pakistan to sign
these treaties irrespective of what India does. We should not be
following India always.
Q.: What exactly is the position
of the move for restoration of democracy in Pakistan?
A.: When this regime took
over somehow I was in India. Here my friends were worried that when
I go back I may be arrested and dumped in a prison cell like in the previous
military regimes. But nothing of that kind had happened. Nobody
was touched. All the arrests have been mostly confined to bureaucrats
and some corrupt politicians. Of course there was some discrimination.
As far as restoration of democracy is concerned you see there are two opinions.
What kind of democracy? Are we going to restore the same democracy that
we had before October 12? Before this date, the democracy, we had was a
two-men rule - Nawaz Sharif and his brother. Sharif controlled from
Islamabad and his brother from Punjab. And a coterie of their close
friends. Okay when you take it in the sub-continental context may
be I also supported the bus trip of Atal Behari Vajpayee. It was
something very important. But, by one dramatic step a 50 years old
thing cannot come down and the wall cannot break down. That has been
proved later on in Kargil and all. The thing is that when this man
took over there was a certain expression-expression of relief-silently
or loudly expressed that something better will happen. We have always
been waiting for something better to happen. And when it immediately
happened we supported it and later on we found that it was worse.
But here until now worse has not happened. The better is still awaited.
When Benazir says to put me in power that is her restoration of democracy.
Nawaz Sharif's wife Kulsoom's demand is that just put us back in power
to restore the democracy That is not the case. 90 per cent of People
do not think so. Do not want them to come to power. The thing
is that they did nothing. The kind of democracy we had was that.
Nawaz Sharif's democracy in the last four months of his regime was. there
were attacks on the press. The Supreme court was attacked.
The President's position was attacked. No institution was left alone.
What is this democracy?
Q.: But, how long this set
up will continue?
A.: Our country cannot exist
without democracy. Because it a federal sort of set up. We
have four-five different provinces. Each province has its own culture,
language, history everything. Totally different. Parties like
ours call them separate nationalities. Pakistan is a federation of
five distinct nationalities. Sindhi, Baluch, Pathan, Punjabi and
Saraiki. They constitute Pakistan. This kind of a federation
can work only in a democracy. A military regime means a unitary government
controlling from Islamabad that makes the federal structure collapse.
So democracy is a must for Pakistan to survive, exist as a federation.
But, what people are afraid of it's a democracy which means freedom to
loot, to plunder and to take away the wealth of the country outside and
dump them in foreign banks. That kind of democracy we don't want.
What will happen now is that this military regime whatever it may be. there
is some sort of a balance.
Q.: Is there any chance for
Nawaz Sharif's party and Benazir's party coming together to fight the military
regime?
A.: Yes, they are meeting.
Benazir has sent message that people's party should align with Muslim League.
Pakistani people are no longer that idiotic or stupid. They ask what
kind of an alliance that you are going to make for us. When one was
in power the other was totally destroyed. Nawaz Sharif used to say
from open platform when I see the face of Benazir, when I hear her name
my blood starts boiling. Now the blood is unboiling. It is
an opportunistic alliance finally when both of them decide let us get out
of this accountability net, come back to power, then you let me to loot
for two years and we also allow you.
Q.: So, you don't want to
go back to the old kind of corrupt and democratic governments of Benazir
and Sharif. You don't want this alliance also come to power.
You also don't want this military rule to continue. What then is
the way out?
A.: The way out should be
a very impartial, a very fair election. In 1970 it was a military
regime. In Pakistan's history the firstever free and fair election was
held by a military dictator. That was General Yahya Khan. Though
the regime tried to bring to power its own group. But nothing had
happened. People voted for the parties they wanted to vote.
In East Pakistan they voted for Awami League, in West Pakistan - in Sindh
and Punjab - they voted for People's party, in Frontier and Baluchisthan
they voted for our party, which was national Awami party. So free
and fair election brings out real kind of democracy. But that democracy
was not allowed to function because power was not transferred to the elected
representatives that was Mujibur Rehman and Awami League. We are
suffering for that today. A free and fair election cannot take place
in Benazir's or Sharif's regimes. It should be done by some independent
agency. Army may be that independent agency. It could play
that role if it wants. But the question is does it want?
Q.: Even after that, going
by Pakistan's history of coups, the army may dislodge the popular government
at the drop of a hat.
A.: There should be mechanisms
which should be discussed and put in place. In any case army's role
is not political. Army has no role in politics. This was totally
unavoidable sort of a situation when the army came to power. If the
political parties have been functioning properly, military would not have
the guts to intervene.
Q.: Is there any possibility
of a national government coming to power?
A.: National government is
a farce. What is a national government? National government can be
a technocratic government. It can be anything.
Q.: What will be the fate
of the cases against Muslim League leaders?
A.: Cases are plenty.
The problem is that all of those cannot be proved. Everybody knows
the quantum of loot. one thing should be credited to Nawaz Sharif.
Muslim League did not exist when it was not in power. It disappeared.
This time after getting out of power Muslim League has survived.
This is a good sign for Pakistan. Muslim League should survive.
Same is the case with people's party.
Q.: What happened to some
new faces appeared on the political horizon of Pakistan, for example cricketer-turned
politician Imran Khan?
A.: Imran Khan has not yet
been able to take off. That shows the maturity of the people of Pakistan.
You cannot take the people of Pakistan for a ride. They have been
taken for a ride for more than 50-54 years. Now they won't accept
anybody like that. form cricket pitch to prime minister's house.
You have got to go through that mill now. And he is going though
that mill. Some good people are with him. He is maturing also.
Q.: What is the economic situation
of Pakistan now? Has it improved?
A.: No. no. Very
bad. But the government is trying to do a lot of things. For
example, tightening of tax collection. Thousands of businessmen go
without paying tax. There is a nexus between middle order businessmen
and religious parties. Once the economy goes to the brink of bankruptcy
it is not easy to bring it back. The only and only solution is that
we should have peace in this area. So that you can save this millions
and millions of rupees being paid on armaments. Trade between India
and Pakistan.
Q.: What is the future of
Indo-Pak relations against the backdrop of cross-border terrorism, absence
of bilateral dialogue and Pakistan giving shelter to wanted done like Dawood
Ibrahim?
A.: The only thing we know
is that we are fighting against all these. These should not happen.
We 50 of us came from Pakistan are in Delhi. We appealed to both
governments for a sensible approach. All these things are happening.
Not exactly as India say about Pakistan and Pakistan say about India.
Cross-border terrorism. Yes. May be. The government of
India cannot say that it has handled the Kashmir situation wonderfully
well that there was no opposition within Kashmir. There is definitely
an indigenous movement as well. A very strong indigenous movement
as well. A very strong indigenous movement. For example this
Hurriyat Conference people. They are protesting against the Indian
government's policies. On the other side what has happened is cross
border terrorism is produced by developments in Afghanistan in 1980,s.
This was fully, totally whole-heartedly backed, financed, nursed, fathered
and mothered by the United States of America, by their CIA and today they
themselves are against this Taliban and those very elements whom they finance,
trained, weaponised. At that time they had to destroy the same force
will become one day a threat to the whole region. 90 per cent of
people in Pakistan has nothing to do with Taliban. They do not want
a regime like Taliban. Where would they go? These force financed
and trained by America. They have come from Sudan, Arabia, Syria.
They want another place. That is Kashmir, international involvement
in creating this kind of a situation cannot be ignored. It is not
just Pakistan.
Q.: India's pre-condition
for resumption of dialogue is an end to this cross-border terrorism by
Pakistan.
A.: Much has been said by
both sides. First government of India said we will not speak to a
military ruler. They spoken to military rulers in the past.
They have signed agreements with military rulers in the past. And
the only one agreement that today survives is the one signed by Pandit
Jawaharlal Nehru and Field Marshal Ayub Khan on Indus water agreement.
Cross-border terrorism was in full swing when Vajpayee came to Lahore.
Was it stopped them? How did he come? How did he talked to Sharif? There
is something lacking. Okay Kargil happened. Nobody defended
Kargil. We were the people who opposed it. this was one of the greatest
mistakes whoever did it. That was pouring cold water on all efforts.
now things are going smoothly. Now take Musharraf's three officers
at the United Nations, no war pact, talks anywhere and reduction in armed
forces. And the Indian press completely blacked out it. The
Indian people were not informed about it. We are people who spent
four-five years each in jail during military regimes. Now you are
forcing us to support military regimes in Pakistan. Because you do
not respond. Certain steps you take here prompt or encourage the
religious fundamentalist forces in Pakistan to destroy the liberal and
democratic elements in Pakistan.
Q.: Would you like to respond
to the question about Dawood Ibrahim being sheltered by Pakistan?
A.: I don't know about Dawood
Ibrahim. We have not herd about him. I have seen it in the
Indian press. There are so many criminals you know passing through
Pakistan to Dubai. and so many criminals are living in Bombay. Dawood
Irbrahim's gang is in Bombay. He is no factor.
Q.: Do you foresee any religious
fundamentalist forces capturing power in Pakistan?
A.: We foresee it if the
democratic forces in India continue to ignore the democratic forces in
Pakistan and do not provide us an opportunity.
Q.: Organisation of Islamic
countries OIC-has suggested sending its envoy to Kashmir. Do you
think this would improve the situation?
A.: It is another saarc.
It is oh! I see. I think more than that Lone's son's marriage to
Amanullah Khan's daughter in Islamabad will probably have a greater impact.
That will be a wonderful opportunity, probably the chief minister of Kashmir
is also coming. to Rawalpindi, Musharraf is also going to be there.
Some OIC people will be there. Even Vajpayee has been invited.
