Author: M.J. Akbar
Publication: The Asian
Age
Date: December 5, 2000
Q: Let's start with the
recent attack on Nawa-e-Waqt in Karachi. Who did it?
A: There are many reports
regarding the bomb attack. Different agencies, law enforcement and security
agencies are presenting different pictures.
Some are saying that
it was a suicidal attack, whereas other agencies have different views that
it was not a suicidal attack but somebody planted a bomb and the other
agencies have different views. So there is no common conclusion, nor any
consensus on what happened and who did it.
Q: What do you mean by
agencies?
A: The ISI, military
intelligence agencies, IB and local agencies, CIA and the police.
Q: Why target the paper?
A: I do not know whether
somebody planted the bomb or it was a suicidal attempt. But there is a
chance that it was conspired by the intelligence agencies; it maybe an
orchestrated, well-engineered and pre-planned attack to divert the attention
of the people of Pakistan and the international community.
The purpose behind it
was to blame someone and show the international community that the law
and order situation in Karachi is not good and hence there is a need for
another Army operation as they had started in June 1992 in Karachi against
the MQM and the Mohajirs.
Q: They have not yet
blamed you?
A: The owner of Nawa-e-Waqt,
said in an interview to the BBC that the MQM took responsibility for a
previous rocket launcher attack on the paper. His accusation is a total
fabrication.
There is no truth in
his statement because the MQM has never ever accepted any sort of responsibility
regarding attacks and blasts. It is a democratic political party and does
not believe in violence.
It is the third largest
political party of Pakistan and second largest of the province and is against
all sorts of terrorism. When the BBC person asked him if the MQM had anything
to do with the recent attack, he said "No, I cannot say anything right
now".
Q: Do you think the owner
of Nawa-e-Waqt is too afraid to accuse the government of any involvement?
A: No, but it is true
that the owner of Nawa-e-Waqt, one of the key players belonging to Punjab,
is chauvinistic. They are not working for Pakistan, they are only working
for the Punjabi interest.
For them the Baloch,
Pakhtoon, Mohajirs, Sindhis and people of other provinces are traitors
against the ideology of Pakistan, against the two-nation theory, against
the integrity of Pakistan.
So it is their job to
blame others and malign their image to show the world that the Punjabis
are the only ones who are the true patriotic citizens of Pakistan. The
loyalty of people of other minority provinces is questionable in their
opinion. This is part of the chauvinistic thinking of the elite Punjabi
class, and he is one of them.
Q: Do you think the Sindhis
are also beginning to react now as sharply against the Punjabis?
A: Some of them are
criticising the policies of the federation or the hegemony of Punjab as
Sindh has become a colony of Punjab. During the regime of Nawaz Sharif,
the entire province was run, controlled and administered by the chief minister
of Punjab.
So he was intervening
persistently and since the inception of Pakistan it has become a tradition
that all the time the federal government, or Islamabad, intervenes in the
affairs of Sindh. That is not the case only with Sindh province.
They behave in a similar
manner with other provinces like Balochistan, NWFP. Sindh and Balochistan
contribute at least 90 per cent in the form of taxes and revenue to the
national exchequer, whereas Punjab is not giving any sort of amount to
the exchequer.
Q: Why? Do Punjabis not
pay taxes?
A: This is one of the
reasons. Presently under the military dictatorship of Gen. Musharraf the
people arrested in cases of corruption are mostly either from Balochistan
or Sindh and a few are from NWFP.
Whereas the big fishes
who looted the national exchequer persistently since the inception of Pakistan,
not a single general, not a corrupt politician belonging to Punjab, have
been arrested by the present government.
That is why there is
unrest among the people of smaller provinces. They are not happy because
of the treatment meted out to them by not only the present government but
also by all other governments.
Q: How do you call Musharraf
a Punjab colonialist? He is also a Mohajir.
A: If you are part of
an establishment, no matter if you belong to Punjab, NWFP, Balochistan
or Sindh, if you want to remain in the rank and file or in a key position
you have to follow the policy of the establishment.
As a Mohajir he has no
power at all. The country was run, is being run, will be run, always, by
the Punjabi establishment.
Q: You think the country
should be renamed into Punjabistan?
A: If they do not provide
rights and do not consider other smaller provinces as patriotic as the
Punjabis, they should change the name and should openly announce that this
is not Pakistan, this is Punjab.
Q: In fundamental terms
you see no difference between the government of Nawaz Sharif and that of
Musharraf...
A: Whether there is
a fundamentalist government, or a liberal party, the so-called PPP, or
the marshal law or military government, all who came into power followed
the policies of the Punjabi establishment and when they tried to intervene
or interfere, the Punjabi establishment did not like it and threw them
out. It happened to Benazir.
Q: What is the cure?
Why did the dream of Pakistan disappear and sour like this?
A: We are not responsible.
And the people of the smaller provinces are not responsible for the deterioration
of Pakistan. The economy of Pakistan has completely collapsed.
Q: But who ruled since
the inception?
A: The Punjabi establishment.
And now it is time for the educated people of Punjab to accept the people
of smaller provinces as their brothers and as patriotic as the Punjabis,
provide full provincial autonomy to all the smaller provinces with the
exception of defence, foreign affairs and currency. This is our demand.
Q: By autonomy you mean
a kind of semi-independence?
A: We want to achieve
autonomy within the federation as mentioned in the 1973 Constitution of
Pakistan. Provinces will get provincial autonomy. Not even five per cent
of what has been said in the Constitution has been provided.
So by provincial autonomy
we mean that the intervention or interference in the administration or
in the affairs of the provinces should be abolished, stopped by the federal
government. They will run the province, they have the ability to run their
own provinces.
The establishment should
not intervene or interfere into administrative affairs or other matters
like law and order situation, economic condition and taxation.
Sindh pays about 70 per
cent to the exchequer, whereas the remaining 20-25 per cent is provided
by Balochistan in the form of gas, oil and mines. But in return they do
not provide money to the provinces, not even five per cent. All the money
is being spent on Punjab and the Army.
Q: And the Army is itself
a Punjabi Army.
A: Of course. It's not
a national Army because if you see the composition of the Army, 90 per
cent of the people, the generals, the brigadiers, all belong to Punjab.
The remaining 10 per cent is from NWFP.
I do not think there
is one per cent or two per cent from Sindh. We are demanding that the Army
of Pakistan should be made a national Army not a Punjabi Army, and an equal
representation should be provided with equal numbers from Punjab, Balochistan,
NWFP and Sindh.
Q: You have challenged
it now and started questioning the validity of the concept of Pakistan.
Is that true?
A: What I said in my
speech on September 17 was that the division of the subcontinent was a
major blunder in the history of mankind. These were my words. I did not
say that the creation of Pakistan was wrong.
I said so because that
division not only divided the land but divided the Muslims into three parts.
If you see the population of Muslims in India, they are more in number
if you compare that with the population of Pakistan's. Take the example
of Bangladesh.
They have a larger percentage
and are also in greater numbers as compared to Pakistan. So the Muslims
of India, undivided India, have been divided into three parts. Their unity
and power have been divided by the division of the subcontinent.
Q: So you are saying
the partition of India was not a partition of India but a partition of
Indian Muslims.
A: Of course.
Q: Do you regret that
your family went to Pakistan?
A: Not only my family,
but all the Mohajirs who migrated to Pakistan. Their forefathers sacrificed
two million lives for the creation of Pakistan in the hope that a country
would be established that would be the homeland of the 100 million Muslims
of undivided India.
But when Pakistan came
into being, those slogans which were given by the leaders of Muslim League,
including Qaid-e-Azam... In many speeches he said we want a separate homeland
for the 100 million Muslims of the subcontinent.
But what happens after
the division? Pakistan has become a homeland of the people of the Muslim
majority provinces, not the minority provinces, or even the 100 million
Muslims of undivided India.
Q: Why do you think the
Qaid-e-Azam accepted Pakistan in that case?
A: I do not know. Unfortunately
he is not alive so he cannot say why he accepted such a division. In my
opinion he should not have accepted, where Pakistan stands now.
He should have asked
the British rulers to give land which can provide shelter, a homeland for
all Muslims of the subcontinent. I do not know why he accepted this. You
will need to ask the intellectuals and historians or those who knew him
to find out what was in his mind.
Muslims of the subcontinent
have shown a remarkable inability to live together in one nation. It is
a debatable subject. Some groups of Muslims before the Partition were totally
against the creation of Pakistan or the two-nation theory, including Abul
Kalam Azad, Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Hind and Deoband schools.
Whereas the nawabs, landlords
and jaagirdars were in favour of Pakistan. I have never heard anywhere
in the world that the big landlords, feudals, elite, ever created a party
for the rights of the oppressed people.
Q: Were the Mohajirs
then misled?
A: In my opinion, particularly
the Muslims of the minority provinces were cheated by the leaders. What
is happening in Pakistan is that the Mohajirs are considered as the agents
of RAW, agents of India whereas the Muslims of India are blamed as the
agents of ISI.
Na Khuda hi mila/ Na
wisaal-e-sanam/ Na udhar ke rahe/ Na idhar ke rahe... Kya ho gaya! Jaayen
to jaayen kahan? (We got neither God, nor a friend, we belong neither there,
nor here... What has happened! Where shall we go?)
Is India ready to accept
those who migrated to Pakistan? The government and the leaders of India
can give a better answer to that because I belong to Pakistan and am still
a Pakistani.
Q: If the leadership
of India accepts do you think there is any chance of a transmigration?
Is there any sentiment for it?
A: Those whose lives
have been made very miserable in Pakistan might migrate back to India.
But majority of the Mohajirs who migrated to Pakistan after Partition,
it is their firm opinion that now they have to live and die here.
We are the people who
created this country. It is our birthright to live here, with honour and
dignity. That is why they are struggling for their rights and they are
ready to continue their struggle till they achieve their rights.
Q: I hear a great deal
of bitterness in your voice which leads me to believe that you do not feel
that these rights will ever be granted even within your lifetime...
A: Now it is the national
obligation of the Punjabi establishment. If they want to keep Pakistan
intact they should reframe their past policy against the ethnic minorities
and other ethno-linguistic groups, and provide them their due share and
rights.
We have already had a
very bitter experience in 1971 and I do not want that to happen again.
Q: What was the experience
in 1971?
A: Pakistan was divided.
So now where is the two-nation theory? Bangladesh is now a member of the
UN as an independent nation. After the creation of Bangladesh everyone
can easily say that the two-nation theory was not right because now we
have three nations in the same continent.
Bangladesh is a member
of the UN as a separate nation; not as a Muslim nation, but as a Bengali
nation. When I said the same thing in some of my speeches, the so-called
intellectuals, columnists belonging to Punjab said that the creation of
Bangladesh is also a proof of the two-nation theory.
I advised them that if
smaller ethno-linguistic groups or smaller nations adopt the same policies
as adopted by the Bangladeshis and create their own independent countries,
then will it not be another support of the two-nation theory?
It is the duty of the
intellectuals not to blame others or mislead or misguide the people of
Pakistan to create hatred among the people of Punjab and people of smaller
provinces.
The people of smaller
provinces are very frustrated and bitterness among the ethno-linguistic
groups or ethnic minorities is increasing with each passing day. They have
been denied their due share of rights. All are usurped by the Punjabi establishment.
Q: Do you think Pakistan
can remain united without Army repression?
A: Now Pakistan is also
a reality and I want to see Pakistan (survive). It is my wish and prayer.
It should survive as
an independent state but it can only survive if all the people, all ethno-linguistic
groups including the religious minorities are provided equal rights and
the Constitution of 1973 is changed to guarantee the rights of all the
ethnic minorities including religious minorities, and the rights of women.
Q: The repression that
has taken place against you and your family, when will you answer to that?
Yet you say you do not believe in violence.
A: It has been proven
time and again, nationally and internationally, that the MQM is a democratic,
peace-loving political party and took part in many general elections held
in Pakistan and all the consecutive elections held in 1988, 1993 and 1997.
The MQM repeatedly showed
its popularity as the third largest political party of Pakistan and the
second largest in the Sindh province, but it was never ever accepted by
the establishment because of its manifesto, its political philosophy.
The prevalent medieval
feudal system should be abolished and if they don't, then God forbid. You
have to choose one thing, whether you want to abolish Pakistan or you want
to abolish the feudal system. Feudalism and the existence of Pakistan cannot
stay together.
Fortunately, in India,
after Independence they immediately abolished the feudal system. But all
the feudals who totally opposed the Pakistan movement and were against
the two-nation theory and fought against those who were fighting for the
independence of India, became the informers of the British empire.
When they got a green
signal they changed immediately and became members of the Muslim League
and became champions of the Pakistan movement for their own interest.
Q: You have not answered
my question. How long will you accept repression without turning to violence?
A: The awakening among
the masses, other ethnic minorities and those belonging to smaller provinces
is growing. We are not alone. We are united with the Baloch, have good
relations with the Pakhtoons and are trying to establish better relations
with the Sindhis.
If all ethnic minorities
unite then they can fight for their rights, collectively. It is impossible
for an individual or any ethnic community to resist and fight against the
larger provinces and their Army.
We do not want to fight,
we want to achieve our rights democratically. That is why we are demanding
that a time has come when the country needs the formulation of a new Constitution,
to save Pakistan. Despite the repression we still want to save Pakistan.
Q: But Pakistan does
not want to save you.
A: Then nature will
take its due course of action and nobody knows whether that will happen
tomorrow. If they do not accept, then nature will do something and nature
does not come on the ground.
It creates an atmosphere
and changes the mind of the people and thinking and gives them courage
and they resolve and formulate new policies to achieve their rights.
Q: Do you think if you
go back to Pakistan you will be killed?
A: There is no doubt
about it. They did not spare my elder brother aged 66, who served for Pakistan
as a civil servant and my 28-year-old nephew, a qualified engineer from
NED University. Neither my elder brother nor my nephew was ever a member
of any social, political party or group.
They were completely
non-political people. But they were arrested only because they were my
relatives, my blood. Even in that scenario, after their assassination I
appealed to my people to remain calm and peaceful.
Q: But your opponents
keep on insisting that you have been bred on violence, that you have chosen
the language of the gun...
A: These allegations
are not new. Nelson Mandela was blamed in a similar manner. Yasser Arafat
was blamed, Fidel Castro was blamed, and the UN Charter provides rights
to every individual to take steps for their self defence. So there is no
harm in it.
It does not mean that
when somebody says or advises that you protect yourself and it is your
birthright in all the religions and mythologies of the world... When I
say this, you turn it around in a way that I am preaching for guns and
violence. Such allegations are levelled against all revolutionaries.
Q: Do you see yourself
in the same mould as Yasser Arafat or Sheikh Mujib?
A: I am not right now.
I am still teaching my people to remain peaceful, not to take the law into
their hands. I tell them we will tell the international community and the
entire democratic world.
Very recently we have
decided that now we will approach the Muslims of India and tell them the
plight of Mohajirs who are living in Pakistan.
Q: Have you sent groups
or delegations to India?
A: Yes, very recently
a three-member delegation visited India on the invitation of an NGO, not
by the Government of India. I am thinking of writing a letter to the Muslims
of India to understand what is happening to their relatives in Pakistan,
the Mohajirs.
Q: Is that why they call
you a RAW agent in Pakistan?
A: Whenever any person
or any leader is not ready to surrender or sell his conscience, he or she
is accused in a similar manner. I have been accused by the Punjabi establishment.
I am not an agent of RAW.
I am an agent of the
Mohajirs, of all the oppressed, including the oppressed Punjabis, Sindhis,
Balochis, Pakhtoons. I am an agent for those, not of any establishment,
either in Pakistan or outside Pakistan.
Q: But they say you take
money from India.
A: I totally and strongly
deny it. This is an allegation to malign the image of MQM in the eyes of
the people of Pakistan and in the eyes of the international community.
They are the ones who are paid by the super-powers, whether in deals of
arms and ammunition or any sort of governmental deals.
Time and history will
tell the next generation who were the agents of other countries - whether
it was Altaf Hussain or those who are accusing him of taking money from
India.
Q: So how are your expenses
met in London?
A: Everybody is allowed
to come to the international secretariat. We have all the records of subscriptions
and expenditures.
We receive donations
from all the overseas units and the MQM had requested, after the Army operations
in 1992, to all the members and leaders who went into exile in different
countries of the world. So we have many overseas units, in Belgium, US,
Canada, Germany, Switzerland, UAE, South Africa.
We have asked them to
give us one per cent of their income. So they are contributing and we are
running the organisation and all the expenses are met through the donations
and subscriptions. There are many other supporters who do not want to reveal
their names.
They give cash as donation
and request not to disclose their names as they fear threats in Pakistan.
Q: You now call yourself
pir saheb?
A: No, no. I requested
all the comrades and saathis not to call me pir saheb but call me bhai.
Majority of the people belonging to MQM call me bhai not pir saheb.
Q: Why do you wear these
rings? Are they auspicious?
A: Yes, one is akeek.
Somebody from Saudi Arabia gave it to me saying it is good. I don't know.
He gave me and I wear it. The other one was given by a saathi.
Q: Is democracy possible
in Pakistan?
A: Pakistan can survive
only in a democratic rule, not under a military rule.
Military or the Army
is an institution and it should be subservient to the elected government
and if any general intervenes in the affairs of the elected government,
he should be dealt with and we should formulate in the Constitution where
it should be clearly mentioned that those who declare marshal law or topple
elected governments must be punished according to the law.
Q: So what Pervez Musharraf
did was wrong?
A: Of course.
Q: At one time, during
the days of Benazir Bhutto, you had reached a point where you were in fact
demanding Army rule...
A: Never. We are democratic,
how can we demand a military rule? We demanded that since the Benazir government
was committing genocide upon the Mohajirs, people should get united and
ask the government to announce elections in Pakistan.
We discussed this matter
with different parliamentarians hoping that we could bring a change through
democratic means, through Parliament.
Q: At the moment what
is your immediate strategy? Would it be to fight Army rule or fight for
Mohajir rights?
A: We are struggling
to obtain the rights of the Mohajir, of all the oppressed people and the
rights of all the ethno-linguistic groups, religious minorities and women.
We are demanding that fair and free and transparent elections should be
held as soon as possible. That will be in the larger interest of the country.
Q: In 1965 you tried
to join the military as a volunteer. Today, thinking back, do you regret
it?
A: When I had desired
to join the Army I was for Pakistan; and I am for Pakistan even today.
But when I joined the Army I had very bitter experiences there. They don't
accept others. They hate those who are not from Punjab. Particularly in
the Army.
I was discriminated against
because of my ethnic origin. At the time when I had joined the Army I had
completed my intermediate. The basic qualification they required for the
commission is intermediate.
When they interviewed
they asked me where I was from, and I told them I was from Karachi. They
said what about your forefathers, I said they were from India and they
migrated to Pakistan. So they said thanks and refused to give me a commission.
Q: Does a nation created
in the name of Islam alone work?
A: Religion plays an
important role for different occasions. You can form a nation in the name
of religion for a few months or years, but it does not work.
For example Hinduism
is not only practised in India, but in other countries all over the world;
Christianity is practised in America and all over Europe. And if you see
Islam, it is in about 45 countries and they are the members of the UN as
independent states, not as Muslim states.
