Author:
Publication: CNBC
Date: May 31, 2002
Hardball with Chris Matthews: Journal's
Tunku Varadarajan and Ahmad Kamal, Former Pakistani UN Ambassador, Discuss
Pakistan and India
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host (Los Angeles):
The BIG STORY tonight, President Bush sends Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
to India and Pakistan. India accuses Pakistan of harboring terrorists that
have struck Indian outposts inside the disputed territory of Kashmir. Many
fear the conflict could escalate into nuclear war. Tunku Varadarajan writes
for The Wall Street Journal. Ahmad Kamal is the former Pakistani ambassador
to the UN. Tunku, you go first. Do you think Musharraf, the president
of Pakistan who is our ally in the war against al-Qaeda, is a straight
shooter? Is he trying to catch al-Qaeda, or is he part of the terrorist
threat?
Mr. TUNKU VARADARAJAN (The Wall
Street Journal): The only thing straight about General Musharraf is his
back. He, at the moment, is leading, as the Washington Post put it wonderfully
in an editorial a little--a little while ago, he's leading the US down
a cliff.
MATTHEWS: How so? What is his role
with regard to the enhanced--the escalated terrorism in Kashmir by Islamic
zealots?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: His role is one
of sinful bystander. He's guilty of the sin of commission and the sin of
omission. He's not doing enough to stop the camps from operating from his
territory, and he's not doing enough to reassure India that he's going
to bring an end to this situation.
MATTHEWS: You make him sound like
Arafat.
Mr. VARADARAJAN: He is exactly
like Arafat on a larger scale.
MATTHEWS: Explain.
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Well, he's a man
in control of territory from which terrorists attack another country. Just
as they do in Israel, so they do from Pakistan.
MATTHEWS: Are the terrorists striking
in Kashmir Pakistani, who are all of them?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: They're a mixture
of Pakistanis, Afghans, Arabs, Chechyans.
MATTHEWS: So, are they al-Qaeda
people as we have come to know them, people who have moved to Afghanistan,
set up their operation there and are operating worldwide? Are those kind--are
they bin Laden al-Qaeda?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: It's well,
there's no difference between the al-Qaeda and the groups that are operating
in Pakistan. It's an Islamist smorgasbord that runs the gamut from groups
like al-Qaeda, which is an umbrella group, as well as specific groups called
Jesh-i-Muhammed and the Laskare-e-Tayyaba which have been, you know, India-centered
in the main, but have had harbor in Afghanistan whenever the need has arisen.
MATTHEWS: Is their purpose self-determination
for Kashmir or worldwide attack on the West? What is their purpose?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Their purpose
is the destruction of the Indian state.
MATTHEWS: Of the Indian state?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Yes. Under the
guise of self-determination for Kashmir.
MATTHEWS: OK, let's go to Mr. Kamal.
Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us. What do you think of that--that
indictment of Musharraf, the president of Pakistan? Ambassador AHMAD KAMAL
(Former Pakistani Ambassador to UN): Well, it's utter nonsense. The point
is that the Indians are trying to conceal the fact that they stand alone
against the rest of the world in trying to say that Kashmir is a part of
India. Kashmir is not a part of India. The United Nations does not think
so; the Security Council does not think so. The United States does not
think so. Only the Indians think that Kashmir is a part of India, and so
what they're trying to do is to try to hang on to the coattails of the
war on terror in order to cow down a Kashmiri population where they have
700,000 troops unsuccessfully trying to succeed for the past **65 years.
MATTHEWS: So you deny, Mr. Ambassador
that there's any outside intervention by al-Qaeda? There's no al-Qaeda
movement in that country to try to divert the Pakistani army to fight in
Kashmir against its own terrorists rather than continue its fight against
al-Qaeda in the Northwest Territories? Amb. KAMAL: Of course, because infiltration
in Kashmir is not an easy thing. You have a border which is policed by
700,000 Indian troops along one of the most heavily mined borders, the
line of control, in the world. A rabbit would not be able to cross it without
blowing itself up to bits. And so...
MATTHEWS: So you deny, then, the
charge by Mr.--by Tanku--Tanku that there are, in fact, al-Qaeda elements
operating there, and trying to gin up that war to--so they can destroy
India?
Amb. KAMAL: Of course. It's absolutely
ridiculous. And as far as I know, the State Department has said so, that
they have no evidence in support of this Indian contention which is a simple
effort at dissimulation and deception.
MATTHEWS: Tunku, when did al-Qaeda
get involved there, in Kashmir?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Well, al-Qaeda,
or elements that form al-Qaeda, have been involved in Kashmir for the last
four or five years...
MATTHEWS: Well, why are you...
Mr. VARADARAJAN: ...if not longer.
MATTHEWS: It sounds to me like you're
trying to play the anti-terrorist card by getting the United States to
care about the fight, by saying we're attacking--that your problem there
is the same problem attacking us, the same people, the same command group.
I mean, who is calling the shots in Kashmir among the rebels there?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Well, it's a combination
of factors. It's--the bottom line, of course, is if General Musharraf wants
to stop them from entering India, he can. I mean, he's a military dictator.
If a military dictator can't control the movement of people within his
territory, what's a military dictator for? It's not...
MATTHEWS: Well, that's just it.
You're arguing definitionally, sir. You're not making a case. Does he have
actual control over the Northwest Territories? No one thinks he does. Does
he have actual control of the terrorists in--in Kashmir? Nobody says he
does. Your arguing says he doesn't have control; he's the leader. That's
the opposite of being a leader. He doesn't have control.
Mr. VARADARAJAN: He has--
MATTHEWS: Which is it?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: I'm saying he
has control of those terrorist who infiltrate into India. He does. He...
MATTHEWS: Which ones?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: He...
MATTHEWS: The ones who have always
been infiltrating, the same old terrorist gang from Pakistan that's been
always fighting that war, or some new elements associated with the attack
on the World Trade Center?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: A combination...
MATTHEWS: Which is it?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: A combination
of both.
MATTHEWS: And what are your--what's
your evidence there are Arabs actually fighting in Kashmir, Arabs?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: The newspapers.
MATTHEWS: Well, tell me about it.
Mr. VARADARAJAN: Well, you can read--you
can read reports in the Times of London. You can read reports in the Indian
Press. You can read reports in the Washington Post.
MATTHEWS: Mr. Ambassador, is that
the case, that Arabs are, in fact, involved in the fight in Kashmir?
Amb. KAMAL: Not as far as I know.
As far as I know...
MATTHEWS: Well, do you--do you read
the same newspapers that Tanku reads?
Amb. KAMAL: Well, but none of them
have said what he has said. I don't know what are his sources. They certainly
aren't any of the newspapers that I've read. The only people who are in
control in Kashmir are the Indian troops. And they...
MATTHEWS: Do you fear Mr. Ambassador,
that this might lead to nuclear war?
Amb. KAMAL: Of course. When you
have...
MATTHEWS: And who would be the first
to push the button? The Pakistani government, not the Indian government,
which outnumbers the Pakistani government in conventional forces. That's
the assumption most people are making. Is it accurate?
Amb. KAMAL: Well, when you have
a million people eyeball to eyeball and two countries both armed with nuclear
weapons, and one country threatening decisive action, and the other country
responding that it will react with full might, you have a very nasty situation,
and on a scale of one to 10, I would say that the tensions currently are
somewhere between eight and nine. The only factor which can bring down
that tension is an involvement of the United States, which is what...
MATTHEWS: To what effect? What should
we do?
Amb. KAMAL: Bang the heads of the
Indians and the Pakistanis together and force them to sit down and find
a meaningful solution to Kashmir.
MATTHEWS: OK. Do you agree with
that, sir, Mr. Tunku Varadarajan?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: I do not, no.
I think the only head that needs banging is General Musharraf. I mean,
his ambassador to the UN said today that Pakistan will use nuclear weapons
first in the event of war. Which school of military diplomatic strategy
is that from? It's not...(unintelligible)...
MATTHEWS: What's your attitude towards
Pakistan generally, sir?
Mr. VARADARAJAN: My opinion of
Pakistan is I'd like to see elections in Pakistan so that the Pakistani
people can have an--a democratic government determining their future, not
a military dictator.
MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you very much,
Tunku Varadarajan. And Ambassador Kamal. Thank you both for joining us.
