Author:
Publication: Fox News
Date: June 3, 2002
Following is a transcripted excerpt
from FOX News Sunday, June 2, 2002.
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: With nuclear
war an actual possibility, world leaders are working to ease the tense
military standoff in South Asia between India and Pakistan. Almost a million
troops from both sides have been exchanging fire across the so-called Line
of Control, which separates India- and Pakistan-controlled areas of Kashmir.
For the Pakistani view of this crisis,
we welcome Maleeha Lodhi, Pakistan's ambassador to the United States. Also
here with questions is Fox News contributor Fred Barnes.
Good morning, Madam Ambassador.
Welcome.
MALEEHA LODHI, PAKISTAN'S AMBASSADOR
TO THE U.S.: Thank you.
HUME: I want to start by showing
something that President Bush said this week and ask you to respond to
it. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We are a part of a international
coalition applying pressure to both parties, particularly to President
Musharraf. He must stop the incursions across the Line of Control. He must
do so. He said he would do so. We and others are making it clear to him
that he must live up to his word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUME: Well, there you have it. The
United States wants those incursions stopped.
Has President Musharraf moved to
stop them, and have they stopped?
LODHI: I think there are two things
here. What you didn't show President Bush saying was that war is not in
the interests of either party, and we agree entirely with that. And, as
you know, the country that's been threatening war is India, not us. We
have made it very clear we will not be the country to initiate any conflict
or any hostilities.
President Bush has called upon us
in Pakistan to control and to stop what is described as cross-border infiltration.
President Musharraf has repeatedly said that he will stand by his word,
the word that he gave in January of this year, when he said that there
will be no cross-border infiltration.
But I think it's very important
to ask India whether it is also responding to the call of the international
community.
HUME: We will have an opportunity
to do that in a few minutes, when we have your Indian counterpart here,
but right now the question is to you, Madam Ambassador...
LODHI: Yes.
HUME: ... is whether those incursions
have indeed stopped.
LODHI: We have told the international
community that we will stand by our word. And I think it's very important
for the international community to respond to one of our proposals, which
is to have a verifiable mechanism on the Line of Control, so that there
is an impartial, neutral mechanism for the future, to verify these allegations.
Otherwise what we're going to see
in South Asia is the two countries, every three years, every three months,
getting back to the brink, back to the edge of the precipice. And I don't
think that's in the interest of either country or the world.
HUME: Well...
LODHI: We need a neutral mechanism,
a neutral monitoring force on the Line of Control that can verify the allegations
that are made from time to time.
HUME: From the Pakistani viewpoint,
you have forces out there in that area. Surely you have intelligence, and
surely you have some influence, which gives rise, indeed, to the promise
that has been made by President Musharraf that he would indeed curb, indeed
try to stop these incursions.
So what do you say to the question
of whether they have stopped or not?
LODHI: As I have said, the president
repeated only yesterday that there is no cross-border infiltration, and
that the orders that he gave in January of this year are being complied
with and are being implemented. There is no state patronage or government
patronage of any kind of cross-border movement.
Let me also point out that, on this
Line of Control, India has deployed 250,000 troops on the line itself.
Of course India has deployed 600,000 troops within Kashmir itself, and
it's deployed them for a long time. This Line of Control is heavily mined.
It has three layers of Indian troops.
So the question that has to be asked
of India as well is, how is it that this cross-border infiltration takes
place, with such huge deployments?
I think we have an issue here which
needs to be addressed. The issue is the issue of Kashmir, which lies at
the source of tensions between the two countries. And unless we address
the substance of this issue...
HUME: We will certainly be addressing
some questions to the Indian ambassador about that.
Fred?
FRED BARNES, FOX NEWS: What about
the camps in Pakistan, across the Line of Control from the Indian-held
part of Kashmir, where these camps have sent, dispatched -- people have
gone across the border and committed acts of terrorism? Are these camps
being dismantled?
LODHI: Let us make it very clear
that Pakistan condemns every act of terrorism...
BARNES: Well, I know that, but I
asked about these camps in particular.
LODHI: As far as Pakistan's soil
and territory is concerned, we have said it very clearly, repeatedly, that
we will not allow our soil and territory to be used by any terrorist group
trying to carry out actions against any country in the world.
Let me tell you that, when we gave
our word to the international coalition, when the war on terrorism began,
we came through, we delivered. In fact, the United States, as well as the
rest of the international coalition, could not have achieved the significant
gains that were achieved in Afghanistan without our help.
BARNES: Let me try...
LODHI: We stand by our word. When
we say that our territory and soil is not going to be used, we mean everything.
BARNES: And does that mean that
these camps are being dismantled or have been dismantled?
LODHI: As I said to you, we have
given an assurance to the world, we have committed ourselves, we are trying
to contain militancy in our own country. We are dealing with the fallout
of two long, protracted conflicts in our region.
Now, what we ask of the international
community are two things: One, patience.
BARNES: Yes.
LODHI: These are processes. These
take time.
Second, that India must also respond
to the call of the international community to exercise restraint. We in
Pakistan will not respond to military intimidation and military threats.
BARNES: What about...
LODHI: What we will respond to are
reasonable proposals.
BARNES: Well, what about if India
has a limited raid, Indian troops have a limited raid into Kashmir, the
Pakistani-held part of that, to rout out these camps, would Pakistan respond
with nuclear weapons?
LODHI: I think to talk about nuclear
weapons in such a cavalier way would be hugely irresponsible. My president
has already said that even contemplating a nuclear conflict is irresponsible
and would be insane.
However, let there be no mistake
that these fancy notions of limited war, hot pre-emption are dangerous
illusions in the minds of Indian strategic and military planners. If there
is any aggression that is committed against my country, my country will
respond appropriately in self-defense.
HUME: Now, you have no -- you have
a policy of no first use of force, but unlike India, no policy of no first
use of nuclear weapons. So that does raise the question of what would be
a potential trigger.
Fred has given one scenario, which
is limited action along that borderline. And the question he put to you,
which you didn't quite answer, is, would that be enough to trigger the
defensive use, which you -- that was considered the defensive use of nuclear
arms.
LODHI: To begin with, just like
the United States and just like NATO do not subscribe to a no-first-use
doctrine, we don't either. You know why? Because we believe a no-first-use
doctrine is of only rhetoric and propagandous value and has no meaning
in an operational sense. In a theater of conflict, it has no meaning, which
is why the U.S. and NATO have rejected this for more than half a century.
HUME: There's a hotline between
Islamabad and Delhi for this very kind of situation. Is it working?
LODHI: I cannot engage in a discussion
on the fact that there could be a nuclear conflict, because I...
HUME: Well, what about the hotline?
LODHI: ...because I think...
HUME: It's just a telephone. Does
it work?
LODHI: Well, the hotline between
the DG military operations of the two countries has been used during this
crisis. It's not...
HUME: So, it's working?
LODHI: It's not been operational
for some days now, which is why we think the international community has
a huge role to play, because the Indians refuse to talk to us. The Indians
reject dialogue. We have advocated a peaceful resolution of this crisis.
We think the stakes are too high in a nuclearized region for the two countries
not to be talking.
Only yesterday, the president said
he would be willing to meet with Prime Minister Vajpayee at this regional
summit in Kazakhstan, which starts in a day's time. India has said no again.
What are we to do with the neighbor
that refuses to talk to us, a neighbor that refuses to resolve issues politically
and through diplomatic means?
HUME: Of interest to people in this
country, one last question, Madam Ambassador, is whether the nuclear weapons
which Pakistan possesses are in full control of its military and in full
control of elements loyal to President Musharraf?
LODHI: Our nuclear capability has
always been in safe hands and remains so. We have an impeccable record
of nuclear safety and security. So the world need not worry on that score.
What the world needs to worry about is the fact that how can two countries
in this very dangerous part of the world continue down the road that they're
continuing because India just refuses to talk?
HUME: Madam Ambassador, it's very
nice to have you. Thank you very much for coming.
LODHI: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUME: On Friday, the State Department
said only essential diplomats would remain in India and that some 60,000
other Americans should consider leaving.
For more on all this, we're joined
by India's ambassador to the United States, Lalit Mansing. Also here with
questions is Fox News contributor Juan Williams, national correspondent
of National Public Radio.
Good morning, Mr. Ambassador. Welcome
to you, sir.
LALIT MANSING, INDIA'S AMBASSADOR
TO THE U.S.: Thank you.
HUME: Your colleague from Pakistan
said, upon leaving here, that you will not be in the same with room with
her. What is that all about?
MANSING: No. I have very friendly
relations with her. We get together...
HUME: Did you talk while you were
here?
MANSING: I didn't see her, otherwise
I would have greeted her. She came to my house for dinner the other day.
HUME: Oh, she did?
MANSING: Yes.
HUME: All right. Well, that's interesting
to know.
Let me ask you about some of the
issues that she raised. She says, for example, that you won't attend this
conference, the troops amassed on the border, and that they have renounced
first use of nuclear weapons. What about all that?
MANSING: Well, let's get to the
bottom of this. Why did this situation arise? For the last 15 to 20 years,
we've been facing terrorism coming across the borders from Pakistan. And
today, we are facing a violation of our borders, terrorist groups coming
in, killing our women and children, threats of use of nuclear weapons against
us. We are in a situation where we have to defend our country, and that's
exactly what we're doing.
HUME: Now, you heard what the president
said and what your colleague from -- counterpart from Pakistan said about
the stopping of those raids. In your judgment, have they stopped?
MANSING: They haven't.
HUME: And in recent days, even?
MANSING: No. This is why you probably
heard a tone of exasperation in President Bush's statement saying this
has to stop. He was asking President Musharraf to stop these incursions,
because he had said he would stop them. He hasn't done so, so far.
HUME: And, now, what is your sense
now about whether war could be avoided?
MANSING: The war can be avoided
if Pakistan can be persuaded to switch off terrorism.
HUME: Now, with this massive deployment,
are you prepared to go to war over these raids?
MANSING: No. War is not an option
of our choice.
We've been facing a series of terrorist
attacks. We have lost more than 1,000 people after September 11. And the
last attack on the 14th of May was particularly gruesome, when the terrorists
went to an army camp and killed, basically, women and children.
Now, our leaders have taken the
line that, look, we have to respond. But we have diplomatic options, and
the last choice is military action. For the last six months, we have been
exercising the diplomatic option. Now we are coming to a stage when we
are running out of these diplomatic options.
This is why it's important for Pakistan
to listen to what President Bush and other world leaders are saying: Stop
the export of terrorism into India.
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS: Ambassador
Mansing, why is it that India has not allowed democracy for the people
of Kashmir? India is renowned as a great democracy in that region, but
yet, the people of Kashmir have not been allowed to vote as to whether
or not they would become an independent state.
MANSING: Now, that's a different
point altogether. There the question of their being asked to vote, whether
they want to become independent. But the people of Kashmir have exercised
their democratic rights. They have taken part in every single election,
which as been held in India in the last 50 years. That's more than what
we can so for the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
For that matter, that's more than
what you can say about Pakistan. How many elections can you count, which
have been held in Pakistan?
We have democracy, and the people
of Kashmir enjoy the benefits of democracy.
WILLIAMS: But no referendum on independence?
MANSING: The referendum idea came
up in a U.N. Security Council resolution in 1948. And Kofi Annan, who went
to Islamabad last year, said this resolution can't be implemented. It's
a non-binding resolution. You can't revive a document which is 50 years
old and say, what about it?
The reason why the referendum couldn't
be held out, was that the U.N. had prescribed conditions for the referendum:
Number one, there'll be a cease-fire. Number two, Pakistan will have to
withdraw from the territory it had occupied. Number three, you have the
referendum. Pakistan never withdrew from the territory.
HUME: So are you prepared -- so
if Pakistan did these things, there would be a referendum? Is that what
you think?
MANSING: If Pakistan had done those
things in 1948, they would have in the referendum.
HUME: What if they did them now?
MANSING: Fifty years later, the
people and Kashmir have exercised their democratic rights. They have constituted
an assembly. They have got their own legislature, their own government.
You can't go back to 1948 and say, now let's have a referendum. Things
have changed.
WILLIAMS: Now, Mr. Ambassador, the
Russian leader Vladimir Putin has said that he would like to have a sit-down
meeting with the leader of Pakistan and India. Is that in the future?
MANSING: No. Our prime minister
has said that we don't favor such a meeting for a simple reason: If you
have a meeting, you must have something to discuss. It is not as if we
didn't have meetings. In 1999, our prime minister went by bus to Lahore
to have a meeting with his Pakistan counterpart.
Last year, our prime minister invited
General Musharraf to come to Delhi and to Agra for talks. Well, what happens
is, when you across the table, the Pakistanis say, "There is no terrorism,
there is nothing to discuss."
So our point is, well, you have
to make up your mind. Do you want to pursue terrorism or do you want to
pursue a dialog? You have to choose.
HUME: Well, it's an interesting
question, though, sir, because here you've described your disappointment
at earlier diplomatic efforts.
MANSING: That's right.
HUME: But this situation has clearly
worsened. There's a very great flashpoint there. Nuclear weapons on each
side.
MANSING: Yes.
HUME: And this is a bona fide crisis.
And an opportunity presents itself in this Kazakstan session to have a
meeting between the two leaders. And yet, it is India that says no.
MANSING: No.
HUME: Now, previous disappoints
aside, sir...
MANSING: Yes.
HUME: ... why not pursue every possible
opportunity?
MANSING: No, there is a simple solution
to this. The whole thing arose because there is cross-border terrorism
from Pakistan. Now, all the world leaders -- President Bush, Kofi Annan,
Tony Blair, President Putin -- everybody's telling Pakistan, stop it. If
Pakistan stops terrorism, there is no question of troop deployment to the
borders. So why don't we address the simple question of asking Pakistan
to stop cross-border terrorism?
WILLIAMS: Well, with this attitude,
you will never have any negotiations.
But let me just quickly ask, earlier
we heard the ambassador from Pakistan say to Brit Hume and Fred Barnes
that the line between the two capitals that would inform them of an early-warning
system with regard to the use of nuclear weapons is not working. Is that
right?
MANSING: Oh, that's not right. The
telephones are working. We have embassies in both countries. The Directors
General of military operation on both sides have a hotline, and they speak
to each other. As a matter of routine, every Tuesday they speak to each
other.
It's not as if communications don't
exist. Last week, even while talk of war was going on, the delegations
of India and Pakistan met in Delhi to discuss the sharing of the rivers
which are common to India and Pakistan.
Let's not assume that there is a
total breakdown of communications.
HUME: Mr. Ambassador, thank you
very much for coming in.
MANSING: Thank you.
HUME: Do come back.
MANSING: It's a pleasure to be here.
