Date: June 10, 2002
The Secretary of State for Foreign
and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Jack Straw): With permission, Mr. Speaker,
I wish to make a statement about the situation in India and Pakistan.
Intense diplomatic efforts and decisions
made in recent days by the Governments of India and Pakistan give grounds
for some optimism, and tensions have eased a little. None the less, with
1 million men under arms on either side of the line of control in a high
state of readiness, the risks of a conflict remain significant. As both
countries are in possession of nuclear weapons, the potential consequences
for the region and for the wider world are devastating.
Let me give some brief background,
then set out the action that has been taken by Her Majesty's Government,
working particularly with the Government of the United States.
The territory of Kashmir has been
the subject of dispute since independence in 1947. Three major wars have
been fought between India and Pakistan-in 1948 to 1949, 1965 and 1971-and
in 1999 there was a particularly bloody battle in Kargil on the Indian
side of the line of control. The people of Kashmir have been caught in
the middle of that, at a cost of tens of thousands of lives and even more
people displaced. There has long been serious concern in the international
community about the human rights deficit in Jammu and Kashmir and about
the conduct of some elections there.
During the last decade or so, the
character of the conflict has changed as a result of the incursion of armed
militants across the line of control into India from the Pakistani side.
A number of terrorist organisations-including Laskhar-e-Toiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed
and Harakat Mujahideen, each of which I proscribed when I was Home Secretary-have
been at the forefront of violent activity in the region. India has long
charged that such terrorism has had the covert support of successive Pakistani
Governments and, in particular, of the main intelligence agency in Pakistan,
the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate-ISID. Her Majesty's Government
accept that there is a clear link between the ISID and those groups.
Towards the end of last year, India
suffered two serious terrorist outrages. On 1 October, more than 40 people
died in an assault on the state assembly in Srinagar, the capital of Jammu
and Kashmir. On 13 December, the Indian Parliament building in New Delhi
was attacked, leaving 14 people dead. In response to intensive diplomatic
pressure, including the visit to the region by my right hon. Friend the
Prime Minister, President Musharraf delivered a speech on 12 January in
which he pledged that
"No organisation will be allowed
to indulge in terrorism in the name of Kashmir".
From early May, when the heavy winter
snows began to melt, there was nevertheless an increase in terrorist activity
in Jammu and Kashmir and a rise in levels of infiltration across the line
of control. That renewed violence included an attack on 14 May on a passenger
bus and residential quarters of the Indian army base at Kaluchak, killing
34 people, mainly women and children. A week later, the prominent moderate
Kashmiri politician, Abdul Ghani Lone, was assassinated.
The dispute between India and Pakistan
is at root a bilateral matter which can only be resolved by direct dialogue
between the parties. But it is a dispute with potent international implications,
both because of the potential scale of any military action, including the
possible use of nuclear weapons, and because, post-11 September, new imperatives
have been imposed on all member states by United Nations Security Council
resolution 1373 to take effective action to counter terrorism.
Since last autumn and particularly
since the resurgence of violence in recent weeks, the conflict has been
high on the international community's agenda. There has been intensive
diplomatic activity from the United States and the United Kingdom Governments,
Russia, China, other European Union and G8 countries and, of course, from
countries in the region. As part of this co-ordinated diplomatic effort,
I visited Pakistan and India on 28 and 29 May. I had discussions in Pakistan
with President Musharraf and Foreign Minister Sattar, and in India with
Prime Minister Vajpayee, External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, Home
Minister Advani, Defence Minister George Fernandes and the Leader of the
Opposition, Sonia Gandhi.
In Islamabad, I underlined to President
Musharraf the need for Pakistan to take visible, decisive and verifiable
steps to seal the line of control; to stop supplies to militant groups;
to help restrain the violent activities of those groups; and to close the
militant training camps on Pakistan's side of the line of control.
In my meetings in Delhi with Prime
Minster Vajpayee and Jaswant Singh, I stressed that as Pakistan had demonstrated
that it was taking the necessary steps to clamp down on terrorism, India
should respond positively. A number of possible steps to reduce tension
were discussed with both sides. I also underlined to the Indian Government
once again the need for them to take steps to improve the human rights
situation in Jammu and Kashmir and to ensure free, fair and inclusive elections
in Jammu and Kashmir this autumn.
Before my visit, Commissioner Patten
of the EU visited the region and held discussions with both sides. Last
week at a regional conference in Almaty, both Russian President Putin and
Chinese President Jiang Zemin met separately with President Musharraf and
Prime Minister Vajpayee. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has spoken
at length to both sides, and to Presidents Bush and Putin, about the situation.
Following my trip, US Deputy Secretary
of State Richard Armitage visited both countries last week. Mr. Armitage
was given a categorical undertaking by President Musharraf that sealing
the line of control would be "permanent". The Government of India described
that as a "step forward" and said that it would respond "appropriately
and positively." Separately, the US and UK Governments have assessed that
there appears to have been a significant reduction in incursions across
the line of control since towards the end of May.
I am pleased to tell the House that
when I spoke this morning to my Indian counterpart, Jaswant Singh, he told
me that India was announcing today that restrictions on overflights from
Pakistan over India were to be lifted, and that the name of the next Indian
high commissioner to Pakistan was being made public. I also understand
that the Western and Eastern Indian fleets are returning to port. We have,
therefore, seen both sides take first steps in the right direction, but
the position is still precarious. Terrorism is still a threat and the situation
will continue for some time to require the engagement of the international
community.
Like my right hon. Friend the Prime
Minister and President Putin, President Bush has made it clear that he
intends to remain personally involved. I should like to express my thanks
and appreciation to US Secretary of State Colin Powell and his deputy Richard
Armitage for their indefatigable work in trying to help to resolve the
crisis.
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
will be visiting India and Pakistan this week. The international efforts
against terrorism and the Kashmir crisis will be an important agenda item
for the meeting of G8 Foreign Ministers in Whistler, western Canada, which
I shall be attending later this week. Fellow EU Foreign Ministers are discussing
the matter today.
The present crisis has, of course,
had direct consequences for many UK citizens and their families. The UK
has up to 3 million citizens who are of south Asian origin. As Secretary
of State, I have to balance our wider foreign policy interests with my
direct duty of care for all UK citizens in the region and for all British
Government staff and their families, whether UK based or locally engaged.
In response to specific t errorists threats, I decided on 22 May to reduce
the level of staffing at British Government posts in Pakistan. At the same
time, our travel advice was amended to advise against all but essential
travel to Pakistan. As the House was about to rise, there was no opportunity
for me to make a statement. I wrote to all colleagues in this House and
the other place to set out the changes that had been made and set out in
a separate letter what we are seeking to do on the issue of Kashmir.
As tensions increased between the
two countries, I announced during the recess, on 31 May, a drawdown of
less essential British staff and their families from all posts in Pakistan
and from New Delhi and Mumbai in India, and also issued new travel advice
for India. Last Wednesday, 5 June, I announced further strengthening of
our travel advice in respect of both countries.
We have been working hard to keep
the south Asian communities here properly informed of what we are doing
and to understand and respond to their anxieties. My right hon. Friend
the Home Secretary therefore met representatives of those communities on
29 May to listen to their concerns. As soon as I returned from the sub-continent
on 30 May, I held similar meetings, including some with a number of colleagues
from this House, to explain what I had been doing in New Delhi and Islamabad.
As every hon. Member knows, our
high commissions in New Delhi and Islamabad are among the busiest visa
and consular operations in the world. Throughout this difficult period,
we have maintained a service in India, albeit at a reduced level. Visa
and consular operations in Pakistan had to be temporarily suspended, but
I am pleased to tell the House that a limited service resumed last Thursday,
6 June.
Notwithstanding the more hopeful
signs, the situation in the region remains dangerous. The problems between
India and Pakistan cannot satisfactorily be resolved by military means.
That would only lead to more suffering and potentially have devastating
consequences for everyone. Working with our international partners, particularly
the United States, our diplomatic efforts are there to encourage both sides
to take the necessary steps to end terrorism, reduce tensions and enter
into effective dialogue. Only then can we hope to break the cycle of crises
and secure a permanent peaceful settlement to the issue of Kashmir.
Mr. Richard Spring (Conservative
Party Front Bench Spokesman for Foreign & Commonwealth Office): In
thanking the Foreign Secretary, may I first congratulate the Under-Secretary
of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North
Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien), on his return to the Front Bench, and wish
him well in his new role?
This is clearly a period of the
greatest anxiety for the people of the sub-continent. However, there are
millions of our own fellow British citizens in this country whose family
origins lie in the sub-continent, in India, Pakistan and Kashmir itself.
This is a time of special concern for them in respect of their friends
and loved ones in the region, and our thoughts are very much with them.
I hope that the most recent reports saying that there is some easing of
tensions will provide some degree of comfort.
Shortly after the events of 11 September,
my right hon. Friend the shadow Foreign Secretary warned that any instability
between India and Pakistan was one of the greatest threats that the world
might face in future. Sadly, it appears that that warning has now been
realised. I welcome the Foreign Secretary's steps to withdraw staff and
advise British citizens and those holding dual passports to leave India
and Pakistan. What estimate has his Department made of the number of those
warned who have taken the Foreign Office advice? What ongoing measures
is his Department taking to ensure that British citizens abroad are kept
informed of the unfolding situation?
There have been press reports over
the weekend saying that the Government are making contingency plans for
a considerable number of refugees coming to this country in the event of
war. Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that; indicate what arrangements
are being made and for how many people; and tell us where such refugee
camps would be established?
We have heard the threat of clashes
and skirmishes and the rhetoric of "no first strike". Surely, the only
acceptable language is that of "no war." The lack of a nuclear doctrine
was raised before the Foreign Secretary's visit to the region. What progress
did he make in establishing such a doctrine between the two countries?
During the cold war, there were
direct communications links between the Kremlin and Washington at the highest
level. If, as we understand, they do not exist in this case, surely every
encouragement should be given to the two countries to establish a hotline
without delay. Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the risk of nuclear
conflagration means that the matter is now no longer purely domestic, or
even bilateral, but has been effectively internationalised? As we know
from Chernobyl, terrible consequences will be felt well beyond the sub-continent.
Last week, the Secretary of State
for Defence did not explicitly rule out UK troops being part of an international
force to patrol the disputed line of control, the aim being to reassure
India that serious attempts are being made to bring to an end guerrilla
infiltration. Is the Foreign Secretary aware of estimates of how many troops
would be required to patrol the line effectively? The Indian Government
have proposed a joint patrol force only. What discussions has the Foreign
Secretary had with the Secretary of State for Defence about the possibility
of internationalising the force, and has he received any understanding
of what British forces might be available, especially given the extent
to which our armed forces are already committed abroad? What is the current
state of discussions with the Indian and Pakistani Governments about that
possibility?
The UK Government were signatories
to the United Nations resolutions of 1948 and 1950 which, inter alia, called
for Kashmiri opinion to be tested. What is the British Government's present
view of that matter? Those are important issues which the Foreign Secretary
needs to clarify. We welcome his involvement in encouraging both sides
to take a step back from conflict and his visit to the region, but it is
of the utmost significance that the US Deputy Secretary of State Richard
Armitage has been in the region, followed by Donald Rumsfeld, whose visit
took place this week. The US has a crucial role to play. Equally, we welcome
President's Putin leadership and involvement, and note the role that the
other regional power, China, is playing, given its relationships with Pakistan
and India.
Following the terrible events of
11 September, President Musharraf won many admirers by his statesmanlike
response to those events and subsequent events in Afghanistan, despite
intense domestic pressures and difficulties. Equally, the people of India
have every reason to feel affronted by terrorist attacks on their own territory
and especially on their own Parliament. For more than 50 years, India has
been the world's greatest democracy. It therefore seems tragic that Kashmir,
the most beautiful corner of the sub-continent, continues to act as the
catalyst for mistrust, conflict and war.
With the apparent easing of tensions,
it is to be hoped that high-level diplomatic representation can be re-established
quickly in situ in Delhi and Islamabad, leading to a direct dialogue. We
shall of course support any genuine attempt to broker a peaceful settlement
of the dispute. In their endeavours to achieve that, with our allies and
friends, the Government have our full support.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to the
hon. Gentleman for his comments and for the support he offers. On a personal
level, I am also grateful for his welcome back to the Front Bench to the
Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon.
Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. O'Brien). Since he, too,
is sitting on the Front Bench, I should like to express my appreciation
to the Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office, my hon. Friend the
Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw), for the way in which he dealt with his
portfolio as a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister. The hon. Gentleman
asked several specific questions, each of which I shall endeavour to answer.
I cannot say precisely how many British citizens have returned. We have
given clear advice which has been relayed not only in the United Kingdom,
where it will have been heard by relatives and friends of those who are
in India and Pakistan, but in the media in both India and Pakistan. The
advice is also available worldwide on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
website. Advice in respect of Pakistan has been issued not once, not twice,
but three times, and has been upgraded each time; and advice in respect
of India has been issued not once but twice. I think that no potential
visitor to India or Pakistan or British citizen in either country can be
unaware of the advice that we have given.
The hon. Gentleman asked about contingency
plans. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in association with the Home
Office and other relevant Departments, maintains contingency plans on evacuation
for about 100 countries. Obviously, countries in the sub-continent are
among them; the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not go into details,
except to say that if and when we judge it appropriate to make those contingency
plans active and public, of course the House will be the first to know.
At the moment, while we obviously have to prepare for all contingencies,
we live in hope that maybe-maybe-the better news over the weekend can be
sustained.
The hon. Gentleman asked whether
there has been a well-developed nuclear doctrine between India and Pakistan.
While each side is developing what it describes as a nuclear doctrine,
there is nothing like the level of sophistication nor anything like the
failsafe measures that were developed by the Warsaw pact and NATO countries
during the cold war. One lesson to be drawn from the history of east and
west Europe is that as a result of the raising of the bar against the use
of nuclear weapons by either side, east and west-the Warsaw pact and NATO-eventually
decided to resolve their intense disputes and arguments not by resorting
to nuclear weapons but by peaceful means. Who would have thought, even
15 years ago, that Russia would now be effectively part of NATO? That is
what we have achieved by peaceful means; we could never have done so by
nuclear exchange.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the
number of troops patrolling the line of control. In all our discussions,
the main proposition has been for joint patrols of Indian and Pakistani
troops. Given the dangers on the line of control, its length and the terrain,
that is effectively the only candidate for patrolling that difficult territory.
If we were asked to provide military advisers, not infantry to patrol the
line of control, of course my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
for Defence would consider that but, as he has made clear on a number of
occasions, no request has been made, still less have any decisions been
taken.
The hon. Gentleman's last point
was about the status of the United Nations Security Council resolutions
passed in 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951. For the benefit of hon. Members, I
shall arrange for those to be placed in the Library in a single form. It
is worth while right hon. and hon. Members on both sides reading the original
texts, because there are myths around them which are not sustained by the
texts themselves. Suffice it to say that Pakistan believes that the Security
Council resolutions should still be implemented; India says that the Simla
agreement of 1972 superseded them. As for the British Government, we think
that there is not a huge amount of point in getting involved in a historiographical
exercise about which position is correct. We have to deal with the here
and now and how we can best resolve the dispute, which is bilateral, but
has obvious international implications. It is therefore right that the
international community has been engaged in the way that it has.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (Liberal Democrat
Spokesman for Foreign Affairs): May I tell the Foreign Secretary that neither
in his analysis nor in his cautiously optimistic conclusions do I find
anything with which to disagree? I commend him too for his sure-footedness
in recent weeks in circumstances in which, as his predecessor found out,
it is not difficult to become embroiled in controversy. He was right to
underline to both Governments, as he did again today, the apocalyptic consequences
of a nuclear exchange between them, which would not-indeed, could not-be
contained within their own borders. Do not those events underline the pressing
urgency to bring both India and Pakistan into the nuclear non-proliferation
regime and, in particular, to persuade both of them to sign the comprehensive
test ban treaty?
Finally, does the Foreign Secretary
understand that in recent weeks the policy of Her Majesty's Government
on arms sales has, to put it mildly, seemed to lack coherence? When the
crisis began to reach critical levels, why did the Government not announce
an immediate suspension of arms sales both to India and to Pakistan, and
seek to persuade others to do the same?
Mr. Straw: First, I thank the right
hon. and learned Gentleman for his welcome for the actions that have been
taken. That is much appreciated. On such a sensitive and difficult issue,
it is extremely important for any Foreign Secretary to have the support
of those on his own side of the Chamber, which I hope may be forthcoming,
as well as the support that has been forthcoming from the hon. Member for
West Suffolk (Mr. Spring), the official Opposition spokesman, and from
the Liberal Democrats.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman
asked about the comprehensive test ban treaty. I hope that from this terrible
and potentially devastating situation we may be able to get some good.
We want to encourage both sides by bilateral dialogue to seek to resolve
the long-standing dispute. In the past, there have been discussions that
failed in the end, as they did in Agra last year, but came quite close
to agreement. We hope that the parties will agree among themselves on the
appropriate forum for such bilateral discussion and, in the end, resolution
of the issue.
We hope, too, that both parties
will consider joining the various international treaties, which in turn
have helped to make the signatories much safer from the risks of nuclear
war than they were before.
On the issue of arms sales, the
then Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw)
in a detailed written answer of 15 March, set out that we were further
restricting the sales of any sort of obvious nuclear material, or dual-use
material, that could be used in the manufacture of nuclear weapons and
delivery systems in respect of both India and Pakistan. There was widespread
approbation for that decision.
On the wider issue, the consolidated
criteria that have been approved by the House, which are European Union
and national criteria, contain sufficient flexibility, in our view, not
to require there to be imposed a blanket arms embargo. There is every coherence
in these criteria. For that reason, we have resisted such an embargo.
Given the potential conflict, I
fully understand those who ask why there is not a blanket arms embargo.
I have heard no argument that demonstrates how an embargo by the UK, or
even by the European Union, will be different from what is set out in the
consolidated criteria, and could help to resolve the crisis. I sense that
the way in which we resolve the crisis will be, I hope, the way in which
we have been seeking to resolve it, which is by intensive diplomatic measures.
Mr. Piara S. Khabra (Labour - Ealing,
Southall): I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, which sets out a
positive and sensible approach. I have genuine concerns because my village,
where I was born and educated, is only about 60 miles from the border with
Pakistan.
May I ask my right hon. Friend to
comment on the recent reports regarding the Kashmir international relief
fund and the Regent's Park mosque, which have been collecting funds for
Islamic fundamentalists, and reports that President Musharraf is unable
to prevent incursions into Kashmir by fundamentalists? What are the prospects
of peace between India and Pakistan?
Mr. Straw: I understand my hon.
Friend's huge knowledge and experience of the area from which he comes,
which is so close to the border. If any hon. Member, or anyone else, has
evidence that anybody resident or in this country is raising funds for
causes that are banned by the Terrorism Act 2000 or by the Anti-Terrorism,
Crime and Security Act 2001, I know that my right hon. Friend the Home
Secretary and the Metropolitan police will be pleased to hear from them.
Such evidence will be fully investigated.
As for President Musharraf's position,
I said in my statement that he set out clearly in his speech of 12 January
that no organisation would be allowed to indulge in terrorism in the name
of Kashmir. He has taken a series of actions since then to bear down on
terrorist organisations, three of which I personally proscribed-banned-when
I was Home Secretary. That proscription was endorsed by an overwhelming
majority in the House.
Mr. Paul Goodman (Conservative -
Wycombe): Does the Foreign Secretary agree with my constituents of Pakistani
and Kashmiri origin that there will be no just and lasting final settlement
in Kashmir until the people who are caught in the tragic situation there
are allowed to determine their own future, and that that cannot be a matter
for India and Pakistan alone?
Mr. Straw: The resolution of this
dispute does lie in the hands of Pakistan and India alone. How they resolve
it is another matter, and of course we hope that in seeking to resolve
it they will take full account of the wishes of the people in Kashmir.
One of the reasons why we have sought to encourage the Government of India
to ensure that there is a climate in which free and fair elections can
take place in Jammu and Kashmir is our wish to ensure the provision of
a democratic outlet for people's concerns in those regions.
Mr. Khalid Mahmood (Labour - Birmingham,
Perry Barr): In this conflict, the people who are being used as table tennis
balls in a game of power politics are the Kashmiri people. It is time that
India and Pakistan stopped using them in that way and messing around with
people's lives.
We have lost more than 70,000 people
in Kashmir. Others have been lost through acts of terrorism. I condemn
all the acts of terrorism, and all the human rights abuses and violations,
that have taken place. Unless and until we move to secure international
action, we will not resolve the issue. Will the Home Secretary-[Interruption]-consider
resolving it by means of third-party negotiation, and pressing both Governments
to do something?
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon.
Friend for the compliment, but I assume he was addressing me in my current
rather than my previous capacity.
My hon. Friend is right to say that
more than 70,000 people have lost their lives in this terrible conflict.
Those people were members of all religions-Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims. I
am grateful to my hon. Friend for the statesmanlike position he has taken
in saying that it is the Kashmiri people who have been caught up in the
conflict; but because it is a dispute between two sovereign nations, it
can only be resolved through direct dialogue between those two sovereign
nations.
Obviously the dispute has substantial
implications for the international community, which is why we have been
taking the action we have been taking. As I have said, however, it is a
direct territorial dispute, and it is through direct dialogue that a resolution
is possible. If the two nations seek outside intervention or conciliation
of any kind, of course the international community will stand ready to
offer it; but it must be a decision that they take.
Sir Brian Mawhinney (Conservative
- North-West Cambridgeshire): May I ask a question arising from the Foreign
Secretary's helpful statement? What is the Government's policy on the continued
existence of terrorist training camps? What will be their approach should
President Musharraf not respond positively to urgent representations made
to him by the Foreign Secretary for the camps to be closed immediately?
Mr. Straw: United Nations Security
Council resolution 1373 imposes clear obligations on all United Nations
member states to take action in respect of terrorism in their territories.
That plainly includes the operation of training camps in which terrorists
are trained. We look to the Government of Pakistan to take effective action
in respect of those camps, and we are monitoring the situation.
The right hon. Gentleman will forgive
me if I do not speculate on what action may or may not be taken if-and
we do not think this will happen-President Musharraf does not follow through
the undertakings he has given.
Mrs. Alice Mahon (Labour - Halifax):
While I welcome some reduction in the tensions in the area, I think my
right hon. Friend will agree that we cannot walk away and ignore the situation
again, or we will be brought to the brink of a nuclear war in just a few
months' or years' time.
Many of my constituents are Kashmiris.
Over the years, I have not heard one of them say anything other than that
they want the right to determine their own future, and they want it through
the United Nations resolution of 1948. Is it not time we all started to
ensure that this goes back to the UN, that the international community
remains involved, and that the Kashmiris have the right to a plebiscite?
Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend is correct
to say that we cannot walk away and ignore the situation. During the earlier
part of this year, there was intense diplomatic activity to try to resolve
the immediate crisis over Christmas and the new year. Then crises elsewhere
in the world, particularly in the middle east, tended to take over the
headlines and to consume the immediate concerns of Foreign Ministries around
the world. It is extremely important that the international community stays
engaged in this matter.
I understand what my hon. Friend's
constituents feel because I have a great many constituents of Kashmiri
origin, but we have to deal with the world as it is. To suggest or imply
that the dispute can be resolved by an argument about the history is to
suggest to the people who have been the victims of all this conflict that
it is through the history that a solution lies. May I give a parallel example?
If we put the adversaries in Northern Ireland in a room, they will argue
until the cows come home about the history. My right hon. Friend the Prime
Minister and his predecessor sought to get people to look forward rather
than looking back. If there is to be a resolution of the Kashmiri dispute,
it can only be by looking forward and by a direct dialogue between those
two sovereign nations, India and Pakistan-with international encouragement,
of course, but that is what has to happen.
Mr. Alex Salmond (Parliamentary
Group Leader, Scottish National Party - Banff and Buchan): Does the Foreign
Secretary accept that the capacity for direct diplomatic intervention by
the United Kingdom is somewhat restricted by the fact that all sides in
the conflict allocate to the UK, the ex-colonial power, a certain responsibility
for the conflict in which they are engaged? Given that he thinks that the
United Nations resolutions are unclear on the question of self-determination
for the people of Kashmir, will he give his interpretation of what those
UN resolutions mean? In that respect, he might find that the history of
this matter is rather more important than he thinks.
Can the Foreign Secretary point
the way forward in the current situation? He asks why it might be important
not to sell conventional arms to either side in the conflict. May not our
arguments for peace carry more moral force if we were not simultaneously
selling people weapons of war? Might not that moral force be a factor in
increasing the right hon. Gentleman's persuasiveness in these matters?
If he does not think that, I fear the moral compass on the basis of which
he has acted.
Mr. Straw: Neither in India nor
in Pakistan were my hosts impolite enough to mention Britain's less than
entirely glorious role in the initiation of this dispute. The hon. Gentleman
is right to acknowledge it, but it has not so far affected our capacity
to encourage both parties to resolve the matter peacefully.
On the UN Security Council resolutions,
I think the best service I can provide the hon. Gentleman and the House
is to make those available in the Library of the House, and I shall do
so. They extend, particularly one of the key ones, to a great many pages
and hundreds if not thousands of words.
On the issue of arms sales, I may
be wrong but I do not recall approving a single arms control licence in
the past two months-neither does my hon. Friend the Member for Exeter,
so the assumption that the hon. Gentleman makes is inaccurate. Since we
have agreed robust national and EU criteria for arms control, it seems
that that is the appropriate way in which to run our arms control system,
rather than by some ad hoc process. The simple truth is that we have one
of the most effective and thorough systems of arms control of any country
in the world.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Labour - Manchester,
Gorton): Having visited Jammu and Kashmir on a number of occasions; been
to both sides of the line of control; and seen the festering misery in
the refugee camps of Kashmiri Muslims in Azad Kashmir and of Hindu Pandits
in Jammu, may I put it to my right hon. Friend that whatever force India
is capable of deploying, there is no chance whatever of the dispute being
settled until the Kashmiris' problem is settled? There is no more chance
of its being solved by leaving it to India and Pakistan alone than there
is of the middle east problem being solved by leaving that to Israel and
Palestine alone.
Will my right hon. Friend confirm
the policy of his predecessor, whereby the United Nations Security Council
resolutions would remain valid? Will he also make it clear that until India
is ready to negotiate, there is no possibility of its becoming a permanent
member of the Security Council?
I further ask my right hon. Friend
to take note of what Adya Rajkotia-Luthra, a seven-year-old Hindu girl,
reportedly said a few days ago:
"I wish I could go to Vajpayee's
house and ask him not to have a nuclear war over Kashmir. I would also
tell him to settle Kashmir and stop all talk of war".
Are those not the most sensible
and wise words to come out of Delhi for a long time?
Mr. Straw: As I have already said,
I accept that the conflict has caused the death and suffering of thousands
of Muslims and Hindus, and of thousands of Sikhs as well. My right hon.
Friend has a particular criticism of the Government of India, and that
is his privilege, but I should point out that there is a great deal to
be said on both sides about the history of this conflict. For example,
the fact cannot be avoided that over a period of years, successive Governments
of Pakistan have, through their Inter-services Intelligence directorate,
encouraged and funded terrorists-otherwise known as freedom fighters-to
make incursions across the line of control as outsiders in that dispute,
and to engage in mayhem and terrorism. I understand why many people of
Kashmiri origin-including some of my own constituents-do not like to acknowledge
that reality, but this House must acknowledge it, as the international
community does.
As to the Government of India's
becoming a permanent member of the Security Council of the United Nations,
that has long been the position of Her Majesty's Government; indeed, it
was the position of my predecessor.
Mr. Andrew MacKay (Conservative
- Bracknell): I strongly commend the Foreign Secretary's statement, but
I should point out that it is only in the most serious situations that
a Government should ask their citizens to leave another country. If that
is done in any other circumstances, it devalues the product to such an
extent that in future dangerous situations, people might not leave the
country concerned, and some might even travel to it. Given that we have
seen on our television screens expatriates in Delhi and elsewhere suggesting
that there is no need to leave, is the right hon. Gentleman totally satisfied
that such recommendations are right in respect of all of India? Will he
give the House a guarantee that if the situation continues to improve,
he will keep his decision under constant review?
Mr. Straw: These decisions have
been very difficult. We are caught between trying not to raise the anxiety
of people in the region unnecessarily or "devalue"-to use the right hon.
Gentleman's description-the currency of advice, and recognising our clear
duty of care to British citizens and to our staff. Today's news could have
been very different, as could tomorrow's. My judgment was that the changes
to travel advice were appropriate and calibrated, and in a sense I am comforted
by the fact that similar judgments were made by the American Secretary
of State, Colin Powell, by the United Nations Secretary- General in respect
of his staff, and by many other Governments around the world. Of course,
the last thing that we wish to see is any restriction on travel to Pakistan
or India, or-following on from that-any restriction on trade. Trade with
India has taken off, and with our active support trade with Pakistan has
expanded, following a change in the EU-Pakistan textile agreement that
was reached at the beginning of this year.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether
we would keep the matter under review and change the travel advice when
we think it safe to do so, and the answer to that question is yes.
Mr. Ben Chapman (Labour - Wirral,
South): I share my right hon. Friend's pleasure at the optimistic signs
that are emerging, not least because my daughter is currently in Madras
and is seeking to fly home. Needless to say, I make no special plea for
my daughter, concerned about her though I am; I know that she will work
to find a solution to her own problem. However, her experience of going
to the airline with which she is travelling was to find, at the end of
last week, that all flights this week were full and waiting lists were
closed. If Governments are to issue advice that their citizens should leave
a particular country, it follows that matching provision should be made
for airline capacity to carry those individual citizens out of that country.
What steps are being taken to ensure that seats will be available to those
who seek to travel?
Mr. Straw: I know that my hon. Friend
is not seeking to make a special plea for his daughter, but such an example
is a useful way of illuminating what may be a problem. Our general information
is that although there are heavy bookings for flights out of the main airports
in India and Pakistan, flights are not fully booked. I hope to follow up
the matter that my hon. Friend has raised, and I will let him and the House
know the result.
On the wider issue, we have made
contingency arrangements to charter a number of flights if we judge that
the news is going the wrong way, and we ourselves have to organise an evacuation
of British citizens from the sub-continent-but I hope that that does not
happen.
Hugh Robertson (Conservative - Faversham
and Mid-Kent): Is there any evidence to support the Indian Government's
claims that the terrorists have direct links to al-Qaeda? If so, what are
the implications of that for our relations with the Pakistani Government,
given our position in the war against terrorism?
Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman will
forgive me if I do not go into detail-but I have seen the speculation as
well.
Jeremy Corbyn (Labour - Islington,
North): Will my right hon. Friend return to the points raised by the right
hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) and the hon.
Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) about the sale of arms to both
India and Pakistan? They are both countries with enormous structural problems
and tremendous poverty-huge problems that could be resolved with better
attention, shall we say, to internal issues. However, the west, and Britain
in particular, has been very happy to do enormous arms deals with both
countries. There must be an increased danger of war between them the longer
these arms sales go on. Will my right hon. Friend impose an arms embargo
on both sides and encourage the rest of Europe and the western world to
do exactly the same?
Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend is right
to say that those countries have devoted to military expenditure considerable
resources that otherwise could have gone to civilian expenditure. That
is why we in the international community-including the UK Government, myself
not least-have been working so hard to encourage the parties to the dispute
to reach their own solution to the dispute. As I said at the end of my
statement, the problems between India and Pakistan cannot satisfactorily
be resolved by military means. However, I have seen no evidence that a
unilateral arms embargo by the UK, or even by the EU, would help to resolve
this issue or lead to less defence expenditure by these countries. I simply
do not believe that that would happen.
Mr. John Redwood (Conservative -
Wokingham): I compliment the Foreign Secretary on his diplomatic efforts,
but will he tell us what applications for arms sales in the last two months,
if any, have been blocked by the Government? Could he give guidance to
UK companies that are perhaps thinking of trying to sell arms to India
or Pakistan as to which licence applications would be blocked in future?
We need more information about what the Government will and will not allow.
Mr. Straw: So far as I am aware,
no applications have been blocked; they have been subject to processing
in the normal way. However, I shall be happy to set the record straight
for the right hon. Gentleman and for the House if my recollection is inaccurate.
The criteria were clearly laid out
in the consolidated criteria that were put before the House on 26 October
2000 by my right hon. Friend who is now the Minister for Europe. The criteria
on which we make decisions, which are the consolidation of national criteria
and mainly EU criteria, are clearly set out. They are criteria that the
defence industries themselves properly understand. I have had no request
from the defence industries for us to provide a gloss on the criteria,
as it were. The best way that we can provide certainty is by saying to
the defence industries that we will apply these criteria, which are sufficiently
flexible to take account, for example, of changes in the level of conflicts
and potential conflicts between different parties.
Mr. George Mudie (Labour - Leeds,
East): I am slightly disconcerted by the Foreign Secretary's approach in
his statement, which seemed to view the Kashmir problem only in the context
of the US war against terrorism. I am also slightly disconcerted by his
apparent dismissal of past UN resolutions as historic and not worth arguing
about. However, I am totally disconcerted by his view that this 50-year-old
dispute can be settled only by the two parties concerned. It is 50 years
of such advice from the Foreign Office that has led to the present situation.
Is there not a case for the Foreign Secretary, on behalf of the Government,
to approach the US Government and the other two regional powers involved
to see whether the two parties to the dispute can be brought to the table,
so that the issue of Kashmir can be settled? Clearly, after 50 years, it
cannot be left to the two parties alone.
Mr. Straw: It is simply not the
case that I have approached the issue solely in terms of the fight against
terrorism. I have a fair knowledge of the dispute, not least after 25 years
of representing people from both India and Pakistan who live in my constituency.
I could turn my hon. Friend's argument back on him and suggest that if
United Nations resolutions could have solved the matter, it would have
been solved more than 50 years ago. I am happy to talk about the UN resolutions,
but while Pakistan adopts them, India claims that they were superseded
by the Simla agreement between the two countries in 1972. I shall put the
terms of that agreement on the table for hon. Members to discuss.
I accept that the dispute is a bilateral
one, but-as I said in my statement and have said on many previous occasions-it
has serious international implications, both because of the potential consequences
if war breaks out and because of wider humanitarian concerns for the benighted
people of Kashmir on both sides of the line of control. That is why the
Government have been so heavily engaged in seeking to encourage the parties
to resolve the dispute by peaceful means. So too, have the US, Russia and
China, to which my hon. Friend referred. However, external parties can
do all that they can, with the best will in the world-President Putin and
President Jiang Zemin both held meetings separately with President Musharraf
and Prime Minister Vajpayee in Almaty some 10 days ago-but in the end the
matter can be resolved only by the two key parties who are arguing about
territory. We do not have the international law behind us, or the military
might-even with the US, Russia, China and the UK combined-to police an
agreement that has not been made by the two parties.
Mr. David Chidgey (Liberal Democrat
- Eastleigh): The Foreign Secretary has already confirmed that there are
contingency plans for British military advisers to be sent to help to seal
the line of control if asked to do so. Are there contingency plans, or
any extended contingency planning, to provide a helicopter fleet to assist
with sealing the line of control? Will we send any other assets to assist,
either on our own or with the help of the US?
Mr. Straw: No, although I cannot
rule out what might happen in the future. The hon. Gentleman may be referring
to reports suggesting that some 300 helicopters might be provided, but
the point that I was making to my Pakistani interlocutor was that to do
as we have been requested and insert monitors along the line of control
would require 300 helicopters and a large contingent of external forces.
Such forces are not available, and the British Army does not have 300 spare
helicopters-nor has even the US. That was my point.
Patrick Mercer (Conservative - Newark):
The Foreign Secretary has already alluded to the number of people in this
country who have direct and personal involvement with affairs in India
and Pakistan. What interdepartmental talks have there been about deterring
and containing any outbreak of violence that might spill over from the
sub-continent on to the streets of this country?
Mr. Straw: I understand the burden
of the hon. Gentleman's question, but I do not believe that anyone has
that idea in mind. However, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and
I, along with other colleagues, are well aware of the anxieties and strong
passions, some of which have been expressed this afternoon, that are felt
on the issue. As I said in my statement, my right hon. Friend deemed it
appropriate to hold a meeting with representatives of south Asian groups,
including Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs, on 29 May. I met a similar group the
next day to talk about community relations in this country, along with
colleagues from both sides of the House and Lord Filkin, the new Home Office
Minister with responsibility for race and community relations. We intend
to stay very closely in touch with the communities in this country.
Glenda Jackson (Labour - Hampstead
and Highgate): I welcome the relaxation of tension to which my right hon.
Friend referred in his statement. However, given the apocalyptic nature
of the weapons available to India and Pakistan, despite the answers that
he has given this afternoon and that his Department has given in the past,
many of my constituents were, and remain, deeply concerned that the Government
will not impose an absolute ban on arms sales from this country to that
region at a time of such tension. Will my right hon. Friend look at the
issue again, as the Government's approach seems to do little or nothing
to contribute to what everyone in this country, regardless of nationality
or creed, wishes for-that is, that there should be no war in that part
of the world?
Mr. Straw: I understand the deep
concerns of my hon. Friend's constituents, and I do not dismiss them for
a second. However, some of the supplies that I have approved in the past,
such as de-mining equipment, have been extremely benign, albeit that they
are classified as arms sales. A blanket ban would involve a complete ban
on any kind of material at all. I have already said that to the best of
my recollection-I will correct this if I am wrong-I have neither seen nor
approved any arms control licence in respect of India or Pakistan in the
past two months.
The criteria that I mentioned earlier
are applied very carefully. Moreover, the decisions that Ministers make
are the subject of retrospective scrutiny by the so-called Quadripartite
Committee. Although I know that there has been a separate discussion, led
by my hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), about strengthening
that machinery, ours is among the most thorough parliamentary scrutiny
of arms control licences anywhere in the world. When I gave evidence on
behalf of the Government before the Quadripartite Committee about five
weeks ago I was, quite properly, given a very thorough cross-examination
by the right hon. and hon. Members present.
Mr. Barry Gardiner (Labour - Brent,
North): I thank my right hon. Friend not only for the consistent attention
that he has given this issue but for meeting many community leaders on
his return from the sub-continent, including many of my constituents and
those of colleagues throughout the House. We appreciated that.
Does my right hon. Friend agree
that Abdul Ghani Lone's fatal error was to commit himself exclusively to
following the democratic process in the state legislative elections coming
up later this year, for which reason he was then, as a leader of the Hurriyat
conference-and no friend of the Indian Government-targeted by the ISI and
assassinated? Does my right hon. Friend also agree that when Donald Rumsfeld
is in both capitals this week, he could do a lot worse than come away with
a commitment from the leadership of Pakistan matching that already given
by India that there will be no nuclear first use by that country? Such
a level of equality in the nuclear relationship would greatly defuse the
situation.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon.
Friend for his remarks. He is right to draw attention to the great bravery
of Mr. Lone and the fact that he-as no friend whatever of the Indian Government-paid
for his moderation with his life. There are some extremely unpleasant people
operating in Jammu and Kashmir in the name of freedom. This country, too,
has had experience of people operating in the name of freedom committing
the most outrageous terrorist acts, and we should bear that experience
in mind. I should say for the record, however, that I have no evidence
about the provenance of the murderers. On my hon. Friend's last point,
we want both sides to say that they simply will not use nuclear weapons
to resolve the conflict, and that they will resolve it by other means.
Mr. Peter Luff (Conservative - Mid-Worcestershire):
I declare an interest as chairman of the parliamentary friends of India.
The Foreign Secretary will understand the importance that I attach to strengthening
and deepening the historic trade and economic ties between our two nations.
I want to reinforce the concerns of my right hon. Friend the Member for
Bracknell (Mr. MacKay) about the impact that unnecessarily severe travel
advice could have on economic and trade relations. Does the Foreign Secretary
understand that there is concern in India that travel advice may have been
issued in order to be even-handed between India and Pakistan rather than
on the merits of the case, and will he ensure that the advice is kept under
constant review and can be relaxed at the earliest possible moment?
Mr. Straw: It is worth repeating
that I have every interest in and commitment to encouraging trade and commercial,
business and tourist intercourse between the United Kingdom and Pakistan,
India and all the other countries of that region. To reassure the hon.
Gentleman, I can say that the advice issued in respect of India was not
issued in order to appear even-handed. I took quite separate decisions,
which I spelled out in a letter to all colleagues-as the House was not
sitting-giving reasons for the travel advice and the drawing down of our
staff in Pakistan, which was to do with extant terrorist threats there.
I held off from issuing travel advice in respect of India until I had been
to the region and discussed my experiences, in particular with United States
Secretary of State Colin Powell and European Union colleagues. I judged
it appropriate, and it was required by my duty of care towards United Kingdom
citizens, to issue the advice that I did on 31 May, and then to strengthen
it on 5 June.
I promise the hon. Gentleman and
the House that we will change the travel advice as soon as it is prudent
to do so-back to normality, we hope, but that remains to be seen. Meanwhile,
our albeit limited staffs in both India and Pakistan are making every effort
to run as near normal a visa service as possible.
Mr. Keith Vaz (Labour - Leicester,
East): I, too, commend my right hon. Friend for his worthy efforts on the
matter. He is walking a tightrope in respect not only of what is happening
on the sub-continent but of the communities here. He has been assiduous
in trying to secure a peaceful settlement. However, let me take him back
to his statement about the entry clearance operation. I know that it is
to be increased in New Delhi, but I have had complaints over the past few
days from constituents who simply cannot make applications. That involves
not only visitor visa cases but compassionate cases. I know that my right
hon. Friend has an interest, because of the number of his constituents
in Blackburn who will be affected. Unless we consider how to tackle the
problem now, there will be a backlog of cases. Perhaps we can consider
an alternative method by which people can make applications.
Mr. Straw: I thank my hon. Friend
for his kind remarks. I understand what he says about the entry clearance
operation. I was reluctant to make any changes in the visa processes or
to draw down staff until I thought that it was absolutely necessary-but
it had to be done. We have arranged a drop-box system in Delhi. As of this
morning, I understand that our processing of applications across India
as a whole is running at 65 per cent. of the level at June 2001, and 80
per cent. in Delhi. We will do everything that we can to get back to as
near normal a level as possible. If my hon. Friend has specific constituency
complaints or concerns, I hope that he will draw them to my attention or
to that of the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for
Warwickshire, North (Mr. O'Brien).
Tony Baldry (Conservative - Banbury):
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that part of the continuing tragedy is
that millions of the poorest of the world's poor live in India and Pakistan,
as is evidenced by the fact that India is the largest recipient of bilateral
aid from the UK? Does he also agree that every penny spent on armaments
and nuclear devices by India and Pakistan could better be spent on primary
education and health care in those two countries? What realistic prospect
is there that India and Pakistan would actually be willing to try to resolve
the difficulties between them bilaterally?
Mr. Straw: India is a huge country
and contains about one third of the world's poor, according to figures
from the Department for International Development. Per head of population,
India and Pakistan are significant recipients of aid from this country
and from around the world. As for the hon. Gentleman's question about realistic
prospects, I have given an explanation why the matter has to be resolved
by the parties, albeit with encouragement from others-[Interruption.] I
am neither an optimist or a pessimist in such situations. We have to work
hard for a peaceful solution to be agreed between the parties, and we shall
continue to do that. However, it is also crucial that although the issue
may fall away from the front pages, it should not fall away from the concerns
of the House; it is not least a consequence of the international community's
having moved on to something else that the issue blew up into a crisis
and then festered without being resolved.
Mr. Peter Pike (Labour - Burnley):
I support everything that my right hon. Friend has done to achieve an easing
back from the crisis that we face. He will know that I went right up to
the line of control just before Easter. May I urge him to ensure, in the
short term, that the United Nations has equal access to both sides of the
line of control and that its reports on incursions and shelling across
the line are made public, so that we have a neutral view of the position?
In the long term, although I realise that the issue can be resolved only
when Pakistan and India are willing to resolve it, we must take account
of what people on both sides in Kashmir want. We must ensure that the problem
is kept on the agenda; 54 years is far too long, and the problem must be
solved.
Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon.
Friend. He is right to say that 54 years is far too long. As regards the
specific issue of the UN monitors, I shall take up the points that he raised
and will write to him.
Mr. Mark Francois (Conservative
- Rayleigh): In the Foreign Secretary's remarks this afternoon, he appeared
to rule out the formal deployment of British military units to Kashmir,
but he has posited a scenario in which individual military advisers could
be sent. Will he tell the House whether any British military personnel
have been given warning orders or otherwise put on notice of possible service
in Kashmir?
Mr. Straw: Although, as the hon.
Gentleman will understand, I am not directly responsible for military forces-that
is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence-I
am tolerably certain that no warning notices have been given.
Mike Gapes (Labour - Ilford, South):
Earlier today I had a meeting with the leadership of the Ilford mosque
that my right hon. Friend visited a few years ago. Concern was expressed
to me that nothing that happens in the conflict should be used in any way
by extremists of any kind to damage community relations in this country.
Given that the period from the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs to the Cuban
missile crisis was 16 years, how confident can we be that it will not be
16 years from the inception of Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons before
those countries realise the need for a hotline and a proper relationship
to control and manage the fact that there are two nuclear states in that
region?
Mr. Straw: First, I commend the
very responsible approach taken by my hon. Friend's constituents as represented
by the mosque in Ilford, which I well remember visiting.
Secondly, I cannot give a time line,
but with good fortune, one better consequence of the current crisis and
the international attention being paid to it may be that both sides understand
the need better to develop a sophisticated nuclear doctrine, and above
all, the need to improve their back-channel methods of communication so
as to avoid a nuclear war starting by accident or misunderstanding.
