Author:
Publication: Memri
Date: December 7, 2007
URL: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD178107
In a television debate on apostasy in Islam,
which aired on Al-Risala TV on November 5, 2007, Kuwaiti TV host Sheikh Tareq
Al-Sweidan, Egyptian cleric Gamal 'Allam, and Egyptian scholar Gamal Al-Bana,
and audience members discussed whether a Muslim is free to convert to another
religion, the consequences of such a conversion, and who falls into the category
of "infidel." The following are excerpts from the debate.
To view this clip visit:http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1623.htm
"Does a Muslim Have the Liberty to Change
his Religion?"
Kuwait TV Host Sheikh Tareq Al-Sweidan: "We
have a question for the viewers at home, not in the studio, and they can respond
with a text message. What is the best way to deal with apostates who converted
from Islam? You have three possible responses. The first is through dialogue
only. The second option is killing them, and the third option is to leave
it up to the legal system. Enter your votes, send in your answers, and the
results will appear on the screen. As for the young people with us in the
studio, you can participate in a survey on which we will base our discussion
with our guests. You've heard one opinion, and my question is very simple:
Does a Muslim have the liberty to change his religion or not? Does a Muslim
have the liberty to change his religion?"
[...]
Al-Sweidan: "If a person converted out
of conviction, should he be declared an infidel?"
Abir, Young Woman in Audience: "First,
he should be allowed to repent. We should explain his error to him, and if
he is adamant on rejecting this and insists on his interpretation, he should
be allowed to repent and have the opportunity to..."
Al-Sweidan: "And afterwards, he should
be pronounced an infidel?"
Abir: "I believe he should be."
Al-Sweidan: "Thank you, Abir. Let's move
to Fatima. What's your opinion?"
"He Should be Declared an Infidel"
Fatima, Woman in Audience: "In my opinion,
he should be declared an infidel. Why is there a problem with declaring people
to be infidels?"
Al-Sweidan: "I'm not saying there is,
I'm just asking a question."
Fatima: "He should be declared an infidel.
The Koran divided people into Muslims, infidels, and the People of the Book.
So there is a group of people who should be declared infidels."
[...]
Egyptian Cleric Gamal 'Allam: "With regard
to matters of faith, the Sunni scholars have agreed that some acts lead to
the excommunication of a person. If a person commits any of these acts, he
is considered an infidel. The first case is denying something that is irrefutably
part of Islam."
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: "Another case is when a
person forbids something that is irrefutably permitted. If Allah permitted
something, and along comes somebody and forbids it..."
Al-Sweidan: "For example, some Muslim
countries forbid polygamy."
"If You Become an Apostate, Your Punishment is Death"
Gamal 'Allam: "Someone who forbids polygamy
is an infidel who should be excommunicated, because he is defying Allah in
his right to forbid and permit."
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: "Whoever rules according
to a law other than the law sent down by Allah, and who does so out of full
awareness and conviction..."
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: "If he believes that his
law is equal to the law of Allah, he is comparing Allah to human beings, and
thus, he is an infidel. If he believes his law to be better than the law of
Allah, then he prefers the creature over its Creator, and thus, he is an infidel."
Gamal 'Allam: "Anybody who calls people
to worship him..."
Al-Sweidan: "Obviously, like Pharaoh."
Gamal 'Allam: "Yes, anyone who called
upon people...or who claimed he was the son of God, or that he..."
Al-Sweidan: "This is obvious."
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: "One is considered an infidel
if one curses Allah, His messenger, or the Koran, or who mocks the Prophet's
family."
[...]
Gamal 'Allam: "Whoever mocks Muslim men
or women because of their religion...I don't mean a person who has a dispute
with someone, and says to him: You mock me as a Muslim, you are an infidel.
I mean a person who mocks or curses a Muslim because he prays..."
Al-Sweidan: "In other words, he mocks
the religion."
Gamal 'Allam: "He mocks one of the religious
rites. For example, a person who mocks a woman for wearing the veil..."
[...]
Egyptian Scholar Gamal Al-Bana: "Whoever
says 'There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah' is
a Muslim. End of discussion. It is not our place to delve into the details
of his belief. In addition, heresy and faith are, first of all, up to Allah,
and secondly, they are personal issues."
[...]
Al-Sweidan: "Before the break, I asked
our audience for their views on this important issue. Does a Muslim have the
liberty or the right to change his religion? The results are as follows: 24%
said: 'Yes, he has the right to change his religion.' 76% of the people said:
'No.' Let's hear some opinions and then I will return to our guests."
[...]
Young man in audience: "Sir, if you become
an apostate, your punishment is death. There is a great problem that most
of us, 70% of us, are Muslims because they were born to Muslim fathers and
mothers. Before a person converts to Islam, he has the liberty to choose,
but remember that if you want to convert from Islam, you will be punished
by death. So you have the liberty to choose, but on the condition..."
Al-Sweidan: "That's not liberty."
Young man: "It has conditions..."
Al-Sweidan: "What you are saying is:
You have the right to become an apostate, but I will kill you."
Young man: "That's right. I won't tell
him not to."
Al-Sweidan: "What can be worse than being
killed?"
Young man: "That's why he will not become
an apostate."
[...]
"Every Muslim Has the Right to Change His Religion as Much as He Likes"
Al-Sweidan: "I'd like to give the floor
to Dr. Gamal again. 76% of the young people here believe that a Muslim does
not have the right to change his religion. How do you respond to that?"
Gamal Al-Bana: "That is very saddening.
This result indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the essence of Islam,
which is faith and liberty. If belief is not based on awareness and conviction,
it is worthless. As the Koran says: 'If it had been thy Lord's will, they
would all have believed.' In other words, every Muslim has the right to change
his religion as much as he likes, and nobody is allowed to stand in his way,
because this is a question of freedom of conscience, and it is forbidden to
intervene in matters of people's conscience. Talk to him, persuade him, hold
a dialogue with him, but do not force him. You presented three options: Dialogue,
killing, or the legal system. What do the legal system or killing have to
do with people's conscience?"
[...]
Gamal Al-Bana: "That is very sad. Most
of you are young and do not believe in freedom."
Gamal 'Allam: "I'd like to salute our
young men and women for their natural and healthy belief and for their religious
zeal. At the same time, it was sad to hear Mr. Gamal Al-Bana calling for 'freedom
of thought,' but let me make a correction - what he is calling for is 'freedom
of heresy' in Muslim countries."
Gamal Al-Bana: "Let him who want believe,
and let him who want reject."
[...]
Al-Sweidan: "If a person wants to go
to hell, who are we to say 'no'?"
Gamal 'Allam: "Let him go to hell."
[...]
"Islam... is the Only Reasonable and Convincing Religion"
Gamal 'Allam: "Islam is the only religion
that begins with the imperative 'Read.' It is the only reasonable and convincing
religion."
Al-Sweidan: "But what if a person is
not convinced?"
Gamal 'Allam: "Then there is something
wrong in his head."
Al-Sweidan: "That's what you think, but
isn't he entitled to have something wrong in his head?"
Gamal 'Allam: "Anybody who is insane
should go to a mental asylum, or else if he is insane, his head should be
removed so that it does not contaminate the heads of others."
[...]
Al-Sweidan: "We all agree that whoever
violates the law must be punished. Nobody is disputing that. We are talking
about a matter relating to one's belief, not about violation of the law."
Gamal 'Allam: "If this belief pertains
to that person only, there would be no problem. The problem is that he is
harming me, you, and Muslim society..."
Al-Sweidan: "No, if he wants to become
an infidel, he is free to go to hell. This does not harm me in any way. Take,
for example, Salman Rushdie, who became an apostate. Good riddance. He did
not affect me in any way."
[...]
Gamal Al-Bana: "I believe that the freedom
of thought and belief is absolute, because this freedom of thought leads to
freedom of political opposition, which established democracy and got rid of
kings and tyranny. It also led to freedom of the sciences, which has led progress,
and freedom of justice, which led to fair treatment for laborers and women.
Freedom of thought is indivisible, and the most important element of freedom
is one's belief, because it has to do with one's conscience. Therefore, it
cannot be restricted in any way."