Author:
Publication: The New York Times
Date: October 8, 2010
URL: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/nyregion/10gellerb.html?pagewanted=all
The following are excerpts from an interview
with Pamela Geller, a conservative blogger who has been vocal in opposition
to the Islamic center and mosque to be built near ground zero. Anne Barnard
and Alan Feuer interviewed Ms. Geller on Sept. 28, 2010.
Fight Against the 'Mosque'
Ms. Geller on whether she is a leader in the
fight over the planned Muslim center:
PAMELA GELLER I didn't choose this moment;
this moment chose me in that you decided that I was responsible, which is
so amusing to me. I've been doing what I've been doing for years. I update
the blog 10, 15 times a day. I treated the ground zero mosque story the way
I treat every other story. To me it was an outrage, to me it was deeply offensive,
to me it was indicative that interfaith dialogue and mutual respect and mutual
understanding is a one-way street with Islamic supremacists, not Muslims.
I believe that Muslims are more victimized by Islamic supremacists than even
non-Muslims. But I covered it the way I covered any other story.
ALAN FEUER Do you consider yourself at this
point a, or the, or one of the leaders of this fight against the mosque?
PAMELA GELLER No. No.
ALAN FEUER Why not?
PAMELA GELLER Because I think that I'm giving
voice to the voiceless. But how am I a leader? Look, there is no way that
I have a magical power wherein 70 percent of the American people are opposed
to this mosque. It's demeaning and it's condescending to the individual, for
you - not you, sir - for someone to say that.
Now someone somewhere decided that we're going
to make it about her and we're going to demonize her and marginalize her and
call her a racist Islamophobic anti-Muslim bigot so that anybody that agrees
with her is a racist Islamophobic anti-Muslim bigot. But you know what? Maybe
it's because all the Tea Partiers were called racists, or because it's been
tried too many times, it's just not sticking. Maybe it's sticking on the left,
but the chattering classes and the political elites do not represent the American
people. Not at all. And you've lost their trust, which I think is the absolute
worst thing.
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Her Drive
Ms. Geller on what motivates her:
ANNE BARNARD So you sleep from 4:30 to 7:30?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah, yeah. I sleep from 4:30
to 7:30 or 4 o'clock to 7 o'clock or 4 o'clock to 8 o'clock, but that's really
my window of sleep. I just do it. Now if the couple of times where for whatever
reason I didn't do that, let's say I'm with my kids. I can sleep till 11 o'clock.
It's not like, oh, maybe you're an insomniac and you're doing this because
you can't sleep. Believe me, that's so not my problem. Whenever my head hits
that pillow, I am down, I am down. So it just necessitates it and it's enormously
interesting. It's not a labor for me in that I will not complain to you and
say, "Ugh." I do love what I'm doing.
I feel as if I am doing something that must
be done. I'm making an important contribution in the information battle space,
because that's where we are now. You know, it really is a war of ideas and
it's important. That's why the free-speech issue for me is everything. It's
the line in the sand; it is the difference between peace and war, because
with freedom of speech, peaceful men can effect change. Without freedom of
speech, peaceful men have no choice but to resort to violence. You have no
alternative. Freedom of speech is the line in the sand.
And that's why when I see the press, I see
this self-imposed Shariah. And it's Shariah: do not defame Islam, do not insult
Islam.
---------------------------------
A Moderate Muslim
Ms. Geller's definition:
ANNE BARNARD Just to be completely clear,
so you're saying if someone is a devout Muslim, meaning if he or she is practicing
and believing in the tenets of Islam, they cannot in your view be a political
moderate?
PAMELA GELLER No.
ANNE BARNARD O.K., I just wanted to make sure
we didn't get tripped up in grammar.
PAMELA GELLER No.
ALAN FEUER And double negatives.
ANNE BARNARD Yeah, exactly.
PAMELA GELLER No, no, they can't. Now I also
believe that a true translation, an accurate translation of the Koran, is
really not available in English, according to many of the Islamic scholars
that I've spoken to. That's deeply troubling. And I don't think that many
westernized Muslims know when they pray five times a day that they're cursing
Christians and Jews five times a day. I don't think they know that.
ALAN FEUER Right. So you believe in the idea
of a moderate Muslim, if not...
PAMELA GELLER Oh, I absolutely ... Oh, I believe
in the idea of a moderate Muslim. I do not believe in the idea of a moderate
Islam.
ANNE BARNARD What would be a moderate Muslim
then?
PAMELA GELLER I think a moderate Muslim is
a secular Muslim.
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Morphing Narrative
Ms. Geller's view on the changing characterization
of the Muslim center at ground zero:
PAMELA GELLER That it wasn't accidental. The
morphing mosque narrative. You need to point. You can't just say it's a morphing
mosque narrative. You can't just say that; you have to prove it by saying
first it's a mosque - no, no, no, it's not a mosque, it's not a mosque, it's
a prayer pace. So then you have a screen shot calling it a mosque on Cordoba.
And then it's - but a prayer space is a mosque. And then I would be on the
-
And they would say it's about healing and
it's about helping the victims. And I'd say, well, you know, if it was really
about healing, why isn't it a shrine dedicated to the victims of 9/11 or the
270 million victims of over a millennium of jihadi wars, land appropriations,
cultural annihilations and enslavements? So they'd say, oh, now we're going
to have a shrine. It kept on morphing. You don't know what's going to be in
there. I'm just telling you that right now. I'm not trying to sound cynical;
they can put anything they want in there because they have every right to,
and I stand for that right, just so that you know.
But when he says it's going to be an Islamic
center and I hear him at the Hawke Ministerial Center in Australia extolling
the works of Sheikh Qaradawi - in his own words in audio on my site he's extolling
the works of Qaradawi and Tantawi - is that the kind of speakers, is that
the kind of Islamic center it's going to be? That's deeply troubling. Is there
a more notorious America-hater, West-hater, Jew hater than Sheikh Qaradawi?
So yes, it's a morphing mosque narrative and it keeps changing and the media
keeps changing with it. They will bring, "You said Malcolm X..."
I never said it but that's always how I'm introduced.
But here's a man who the name of this mega-mosque
- and that's what it is, a 15-story mosque - there are other mosques and you
never heard me complain about it, I - Know the remarks? - they never heard
me say anything about the other mosques named Cordoba, which is iconic of
Islamic conquest on the West, and please don't tell me it was a golden age;
I'm just not there. I'm not there. Christians and Jews were living under dhimmitude,
denied basic human rights; it was the site of the first Jewish pogrom, slaughtered
4,000 Jews, there were two pogroms against the Jews there. All I'm saying
is don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining.
-------------------------------------------------
Seminal Moment
Ms. Geller refers to the landing gear of one
of the 9/11 planes, found at the site of the planned mosque:
PAMELA GELLER You guys ran the landing gear
-
ANNE BARNARD Yes, yes.
PAMELA GELLER - that I held up at all my rallies,
thank you very much. That was the - for me that landing gear was the seminal
moment, it was the - the landing gear is in the building? God, it gives you
the chills. I mean the Japanese could build a Shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor;
they never asked. They would never ask. It's just wrong. It's not about right
or this. Nobody is saying all Muslims would do it. Hardly. But so many moderate
Muslims - again, the media doesn't really put them out there - so many moderates
write to me and say it's absolutely wrong.
Even the cabdriver who was slashed, the Muslim
cabdriver, by a pro-mosque supporter, who had an affiliation to Park51, who
worked for Park51, the cabdriver said the mosque is wrong. That story did
not get the ink it should have gotten because, A, it wasn't someone who was
against the mosque. If it was someone that was against the mosque, forget
about it, I'd be hanging. I'd be hanging in Union Square. Yeah. Whatever.
-----------------------------------
Shariah
Ms. Geller on Islamic law in the United States:
ANNE BARNARD So do you really think that creeping
Shariah is the biggest danger to America right now?
PAMELA GELLER No. The biggest danger to America?
No. Do I think it's a big danger? Yeah. Am I worried about it for tomorrow?
No. Is that how it happens? No. It's a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. The mosque-ing
of the workplace where you're imposing prayer times on union contracts, non-Muslim
workers have to lengthen their day: it's wrong. And in places like Greeley
and in Marshall, in Colorado, the media doesn't report on it, but they've
come to fisticuffs, there's been rioting. The non-Muslim workers, they're
mainly Hispanics, they don't want to lengthen their day.
The thing is: I don't care if you worship
a stone; just don't stone me with it. These demands are a way of imposing
Islam on a secular society. Asking for prayer space in public schools for
Muslim children is imposing Islam. If the child is religious, send them to
madrassa. If you don't want to handle meat that's not halal, don't become
a cashier at Target or Wal-Mart. If you want to wear the hijab, don't work
at Disney.
ALAN FEUER Do you detect a level of coordination
behind this?
PAMELA GELLER No. Yeah, yes. The level of
coordination is Shariah, is the Koran. This is living under Islamic law. It's
not that there's a - look, I guess there's conspiracy theory and there's conspiracy
fact. And clearly the global jihad, the installation of a universal caliphate,
is the objective of a great many Islamic supremacists who make no secret of
it.
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Separation of Mosque and State
Islam in European politics:
PAMELA GELLER I understand what you're saying
and I have no problem with the identity politics. Honestly, I have no problem
with hijab, I have no problem with burqa, I have no problem with purple hair.
I don't care. What I'm saying is the separation of mosque and state needs
vigilance, that's what I'm saying. And all you need to do is look at the current
global map and the historical evidence to see what happens when you get these
increased demands to Islam. Now, depending upon the region. The Middle East
was once a Christian region, and look at all the Muslim countries that are
living under the Shariah.
Look at even in Europe, the Islamization of
Europe, you cannot ignore it. You cannot ignore the fact that there are no-go
zones, where the police cannot go in France, cannot go in England, the fire
department cannot go. When they go, it's a trick, it's an ambush many times.
And there are no-go zones and the rule of law is the Shariah.
So what are we talking about? What are we
looking at, if we can look past our watches in 10 years, 20 years? What are
you looking at? Are you looking at reverting to city-states in Europe? I'm
serious. This is not static. You think that where we are right now is where
we're going to be?
ALAN FEUER No, of course not.
PAMELA GELLER Of course not. So yes, I look
at Europe and I'm concerned. I think the first country that will be Islamic
in Europe will be the U.K. They already have introduced the Shariah law into
their judicial system. And again you'll say, "So what's wrong with that?"
What's wrong with adjudicating family disputes and, and I say to you it's
always incrementally. The fact that welfare benefits in the U.K. go to multiple
wives. If you have multiple wives, you get multiple benefits. Why would you
encourage polygamy? I know it's happening in America, the polygamy, but so
far I have not heard of multiple benefits, and if I have, it's not a matter
of law, it's not a sanctioned entitlement.
And so freedom of speech is in jeopardy. Religious
freedom under the Shariah does not exist, and while it all may sound outlandish,
you'll wake up one day, you won't recognize your own country. I have no problem
with Islam. I have a problem with a political Islam. And I'll say it once,
I'll say it 100 times that the separation of mosque and state needs to be
maintained, and it's not as simple as you'd think. Because you see a little
kid and he wants to pray, you give him a prayer space. You're not thinking.
I mean, I see the face, I'm a mother. But I do. One's not thinking in terms
of precedent.
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'Mega-Mosque'
The "ground zero mosque" as a symbol
of conquest:
ANNE BARNARD And that's when you called it
a mega-mosque, because of the size?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah. I'll call it a monster
mosque too. It is. It is. And you cannot discount or avoid the fact that it
is an Islamic pattern to build triumphal mosques on the cherished sites of
conquered lands. Now you could say to me, "Do you really believe that
this?" I am telling you that is how it will be perceived in the Muslim
world, period. What one schmuck on Broadway thinks is irrelevant. It will
be iconic to the jihad. It will be the icon, it will be the icon.
You know, they're finding on these jackets
of the guys coming across the border, these jihadis, on their jackets they
have these badges with the towers. It'll be that. Mecca on the Hudson.
ANNE BARNARD So you don't feel that every
mosque is a monument to...? Not every mosque symbolizes Islamic victory but
it would on that spot?
PAMELA GELLER No, yeah. I think the Dome of
the Rock does. Why build a mosque on top of the very first temple, the holiest
site in Jewish history? The very first temple, not to the right? You're going
to tell me that's not conquest? You're going to tell me that Saint Sophia,
the most beautiful, exquisite, extraordinary church in the world, is not conquest?
Is that what you're going to tell me? I'm giving you glaring examples, but
this has happened thousands and thousands of times.
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Prism of Israel
On Israel and the Vlaams Belang, a Flemish
nationalist party that emerged from the Vlaams Blok, banned in 2004 for "repeated
incitement to discrimination":
PAMELA GELLER ... Now do I see everything
through the prism of Israel? No, I don't, but I do think it's a very good
guide. It's a very good guide because, like I said, in the war between the
civilized man and the savage, you side with the civilized man. And so I have
not seen anything of Vlaams Belang that I've had a problem with before then,
from then to now. I haven't seen it. If you don't lay down and die for Islamic
supremacism, then you're a racist anti-Muslim Islamophobic bigot. That's really
what we're talking about.
ANNE BARNARD You're a racist?
PAMELA GELLER You're a racist-Islamophobic-anti-Muslim-bigot.
And it's one word.
ANNE BARNARD Right, right, you always say
it very fast.
PAMELA GELLER Because I'm always called that.
I learned that by the hard way.
ANNE BARNARD A racist-Islamophobic-anti-Muslim-bigot?
PAMELA GELLER Yeah.
ANNE BARNARD I'll have to practice saying
it.
PAMELA GELLER Yeah, if you get called it enough
it'll be second nature to you.
